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Old 01 March 2017, 21:18   #81
Akira
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Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
Assuming Cloanto would not exist do you really think roms would be legal?
My point with what I said there is that it doesn't matter: a lot of the same people worried about the legality of the Kickstart ROMs they have go to any site online and download games for free that are "abandonware", when we all know that's as "legal" as downloading Kickstart ROMs.

Another example: the C64 and other C= ROMs are bundled with VICE And other emulators. Was this ever "consented" or it just happened and nobody cared? I am assuming nobody out there owns rights to those, but let's remember there is some sort of "Commodore Inc." that still exists and are as much a brand vulture as Cloanto (but probably with the actual rights to prey on brand/trademark).
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Old 01 March 2017, 22:06   #82
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wawa. I am actually pretty new to the scene. I responded here because it piqued my interest. And I am getting a lot of answers that I might not have if I wasn't browsing through new threads of the forum. Anyway. am sorry you feel the way you do. And you might be right in what you say, but for me its interesting to hear everyone's thoughts.
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Old 01 March 2017, 22:17   #83
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Originally Posted by KronusOfChaos View Post
wawa. I am actually pretty new to the scene. I responded here because it piqued my interest. And I am getting a lot of answers that I might not have if I wasn't browsing through new threads of the forum. Anyway. am sorry you feel the way you do. And you might be right in what you say, but for me its interesting to hear everyone's thoughts.
sorry. no pun intended. i appreciate constructive ideas. just open sourcing amiga os, kickstart. workbench or whatever is not one of them. and it keeps coming back, without that anybody does their homework on the subject before posting. this situation was the reason aros 68k kickstart bounty has been called to life back then (and the devs did a lot more than just the kickstart they got the bounty for). now, complaining about hyperion or cloanto in a circle wont bring us ahead. btw cloanto have supported aros kickstart bounty even against their best interest, one might say:
https://power2people.org/projects/kickstart-1/

im not really convinced about them being bad guys..
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Old 01 March 2017, 22:41   #84
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No worries wawa... I think I see everyone's frustrations about different parts of all this. Again so fragmented it's stupid. It sad to see it. But some topics about Amiga is like getting on topic's of politics and religion. lol... It's almost better to stay away.
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Old 01 March 2017, 22:54   #85
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Well I downloaded the AROS 68k from the link http://aros.sourceforge.net/nightly1.php
I get a grey screen for a loong time then a black screen and nothing.
I tried an a4000, a4000 68040, and a few other config.
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Old 01 March 2017, 23:20   #86
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Originally Posted by EugeneNine View Post
Well I downloaded the AROS 68k from the link http://aros.sourceforge.net/nightly1.php
I get a grey screen for a loong time then a black screen and nothing.
I tried an a4000, a4000 68040, and a few other config.
okay. have you downloaded the iso?

i just did and confirmed it working under winuae on windows as well as under fs-uae on lubuntu. can you post the content of your default.fs-uae or whatever configuration file you are using?

fs-uae is very very capricious imho. you really need to get the config right, mostly by hand, on the contrary to winuae.

btw here is mine. the lines beginning with "#" are commented out, the pathes need to be adjusted. pay attention to where the roms are pointing and where the hd drive points to:

Code:
# FS-UAE configuration saved by FS-UAE Launcher
# Last saved: 2016-01-09 13:38:59

[fs-uae]
# amiga_model = A600
amiga_model = A4000/040
# bsdsocket_library = 1
# chip_memory = 2048
# fast_memory = 4096
# fast_memory = 16384
hard_drive_0 = /home/wawa/aros-m68k
kickstart_ext_file = /home/wawa/aros-m68k/boot/amiga/aros-ext.bin
kickstart_file = /home/wawa/aros-m68k/boot/amiga/aros-rom.bin
# kickstart_file = /home/wawa/Dokumente/FS-UAE/Kickstarts/kick.rom
uaegfx_card = 1
zorro_iii_memory = 65536
# graphics_card = picasso-iv-z3
# graphics_card_rom = /home/wawa/Dokumente/FS-UAE/Kickstarts/PIV_FLAS.BIN
joystick_port_2_mode = nothing
joystick_port_1 = nothing
# console_debugger = 1
# serial_port = /dev/pts/2
serial_port = 0.0.0.0:1234
# serial_port = /dev/ttyS0
# serial_port = /tmp/vser
automatic_input_grab = 0
# accuracy = 1
bsdsocket_library = 1
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Old 01 March 2017, 23:43   #87
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Originally Posted by wawa View Post
no. it turns the people away from realistic solutions. who in this thread has proposed any realistic path to follow? i did. anybody else?

its really at least puzzliing to see the same subjects, the same participants, the same idas being shared since years without any action. no new members. it seems only that pople forget that they have thrown the very same simple idea around half a year earilier, just a thought, not any research done and will now again discuss it to death waiting for somone else to come and solve them.
Things do change as time progresses..
Someone could throw money at the problem, (e.g. someone could organize crowdfunding), some copyright holder could die or lose interest and the one taking over has no interest in Amiga etc... Or the economy of it no longer makes it worthwhile...
Stuff will inevitably change, we just don't know when.. It's a slow process, but not a completely static one..

And if you think its a waste of time to discuss it, what about 22 years of AROS development.
If its still not being widely adapted by the 68k Amiga community by now, wouldn't you agree there something not quite right with the tactics used by the AROS evangelists who still pitch it as the only way forward for 68k Amiga?

If you're a politician and you stick your head into the sand stubbornly sticking to a certain viewpoint you will become marginalized sooner rather than later. Sometimes you need to look around at what the ppl actually want.. Not necessarily what is technically best for them or morally the optimal solution. People are people, not robots..
I get the feeling the AROS geeks envision every Amiga owner as someone with a big box Amiga, RTG card and doing "serious stuff"..
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/v...?post_id=99750
If so... I don't think that describes reality very well.. There's still a lot of nostalgia left here. Ppl simply want to use all the software they used before.. everything from hardware banging stuff up to nice OS friendly apps.. but also they want the OS to gain some nice features that improves it and makes life easier and being able to add support for the occasional new features that come with new hardware without needing to invent workarounds and/or hacks..

In my view, if the sources would be acquired, it would/should NOT be a matter of OS3.x vs AROS (Btw, I was originally thinking code up to v3.9, not just 3.1)
It would absolutely be AROS + OS3.x = “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” It would be foolish to throw away the parts where AROS is better.. Now...For the record, I do admire the effort by the few AROS enthusiasts, I respect their work put into the project and I understand their reasoning from a strictly logical, nostalgia free perspective...

But...my personal view.. until 68k AROS becomes 100% compatible and almost as fast as native OS 3.x, it servers almost no purpose to me. I'm already stuck in Windows for all sorts of serious work for the last 20 years. No amount of work put into AROS will change that in any way.
AROS for other platforms makes even less sense to me personally. I only have so much time to tinker with hobby-related activities..
For all sorts of serious work I will use Windows, Linux or even MacOS before I would consider AROS. For reliving nostalgia, I use original OS 3.x because it runs all my software, and it does it fast. I just wish it was easier to "keep it fresh".

Last edited by eXeler0; 02 March 2017 at 00:21.
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Old 02 March 2017, 00:34   #88
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
Things do change as time progresses..
some dont. for instant in this case. can you elaborate on, what changed since last time this idea was brought up or since ever?

Quote:
Someone could throw money at the problem,
even a worse idea. because that money would be wasted and the people who invested in it were severly diappointed.

Quote:
(e.g. someone could organize crowdfunding),
someone.. somone.. have you done anything, i mean anything, in preparation? i mean even a most vague outline of what would have to be done or how the kicksarter formula would have to be? or are you simply talking cheap?

Quote:
some copyright holder could die or lose interest and the one taking over has no interest in Amiga etc... Or the economy of it no longer makes it worthwhile...
so you count on fate. to be favorous of your intentions just like that. you are counting on someones death. and if he is all fine? hiring death squad?

Quote:
Stuff will inevitably change, we just don't know when.. It's a slow process, but not a completely static one..
there is a thing called logical induction. or if you know the history you can approximate the future. so far, using it i have been right in (almost maybe) all my assumptions. including the (preliminary) success of the vampire team. so not all negative.

Quote:
And if you think its a waste of time to discuss it, what about 22 years of AROS development.
you think its wasted? i dont think they do. they are now getting multiprocessor support as we speak, ahead of all other amiga-ng camps as ever.

Quote:
If its still not being adapted by the 68k Amiga community, wouldn't you assume there something not quite right with the tactics applied?
their tactics are not concerned with the amiga community as you think of it. many of them are thinking of amiga as ppc people do, its an abandoned architecture. nevertheless they welcomed the 68k platform, even if its not their center of interest and still support it. it is amiga community that failed to recognize the chance to jump on a bandwagon of a development they could take advantage of featurewise. for the very reason they are begging to have os4 backported. a mercy they wont be granted with.

Quote:
If you're a politician and you stick your head into the sand stubbornly sticking to a certain viewpoint you will become marginalized sooner rather than later.
im not a politician. i have pointed to an obvoius solution. i wont force it over you. its your choice.

Quote:
get the feeling the AROS geeks envision every Amiga owner as someone with a big box Amiga, RTG card and doing "serious stuff"..
who else needs an updated system? a bare a500 users who run non dos games from a floppy? where would they put it on, what for, and why if the genuine kick is the best compatibility?

Quote:
Ppl simply want to use all the software they used before.. everything from hardware banging stuff up to nice OS friendly apps.. but also they want the OS to gain some nice features that improves it and makes life easier and being able to add support for the occasional new features that come with new hardware without needing to invent workarounds and/or hacks..
thats exactly what aro68k puts in perspective. genuine or almost genuine hardware, like vampire/apollo core. a 1.x-3.x compatible kickstart (given yet some work admittedly) and optional operating system that can be loaded from hd with contemporary features.

Quote:
In my view, if the sources would be acquired, it would/should NOT be a matter of OS3.x vs AROS (Btw, I was originally thinking code up to v3.9, not just 3.1)
aros is not just 3.1 compliant in many respects. and the aquisition of the sources beyond 3.1 will be even more difficult, as the rights are distributed among the original coders. os4 didnt succeed to gather them and you will? ask thor .. or olsen..

Quote:
But...my personal view.. until 68k AROS becomes 100% compatible and almost as fast as native OS 3.x, it servers almost no purpose to me. I'm already stuck in Windows for all sorts of serious work for the last 20 years. No amount of work putr into AROS will change that in any way.
AROS for other platforms makes even less sense to me personally. I only have so much time to tinker with hobby-related activities..
For all sorts of serious work I will use Windows, Linux or even MacOS before I would consider AROS. For reliving nostalgia, I use original OS 3.x because it runs all my software, and it does it fast. I just wish it was easier to "keep it fresh".
fine. thats your lazy attitude. you want people to do stuff ready for you to enjoy immediately without even lifting a finger, a perfect product for no money, except you like talk about this on forums. why not. do as you please.
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Old 02 March 2017, 01:23   #89
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Oh, ha ha, it was a PEBKAC error, I pointed to the iso instead of the extract

What did you do for the permissions, since its an extract of the iso everything is read only but if I reset all to r/w it doesn't boot.
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Old 02 March 2017, 01:26   #90
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
But...my personal view.. until 68k AROS becomes 100% compatible and almost as fast as native OS 3.x, it servers almost no purpose to me. I'm already stuck in Windows for all sorts of serious work for the last 20 years. No amount of work put into AROS will change that in any way.
AROS for other platforms makes even less sense to me personally. I only have so much time to tinker with hobby-related activities..
For all sorts of serious work I will use Windows, Linux or even MacOS before I would consider AROS. For reliving nostalgia, I use original OS 3.x because it runs all my software, and it does it fast. I just wish it was easier to "keep it fresh".
in order to clarify that last paragraph.. i have not came here to indoctrinate you about aros. i have simply answered to a (huge) number of posts wht aros reference but containing severe missconceptions and assumptions usually third hand by people who never even tried it. along that i offered a realistic option of how your postulates can be achieved.

now in answer to that you start to put up conditions. like aros wont ever replace your windows work environment. right. it wont replace mine. do you suppose that open sourced os3.x or even 4.x or even morphos will replace your windows or linux setup? aros may even be the closest to it, but do you notice double standards you are using here?

now if you have only a limited time to tinker with your hobby os. how much are you gonna invest into that open source initiative of yours? isnt it a straw fire? in this case isnt it better to start with a team of experienced and usually motivated coders and with an advanced codebase? the leaked source of os3 is out there, apparently accessible, even if probably incomplete. your conditions are fulfilled even if not officially. yet none has made a fart out of it. go figure.

summarizing. i think you are best off simply using whats availible to you. and what fulfills your nostalgia, it wont get away. but if it improved you might not be content about it. and use windows for work.
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Old 02 March 2017, 01:29   #91
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Originally Posted by EugeneNine View Post
Oh, ha ha, it was a PEBKAC error, I pointed to the iso instead of the extract

What did you do for the permissions, since its an extract of the iso everything is read only but if I reset all to r/w it doesn't boot.
well thats the question if uae can boot an iso. never tried. i always copy the content of iso to a directory in my user space anyway. isnt that an obvious solution?
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Old 02 March 2017, 01:34   #92
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I extracted the iso to a directory yes but being asleep at the keyboard I pointed the hdd to the .iso file instead of the extract.

But since I extracted the iso it keeps the permissions.
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Old 02 March 2017, 01:49   #93
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maybe thats when you extract the iso with linux archiver tool. here i just copy it over from windows host. i dont remember to have that problem ever. anyway thats an linux specific issue, not aros.. you should be able to solve it, since you claim linux to be superior to windows..
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Old 02 March 2017, 02:11   #94
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I never said anything was superior, I just don't have time to keep up with windows. Gave it up when they shoved a security hole thinly disguised as a web browser into it and called it XP.

Seems to be Libs, if I leave Libs as read only it will boot but with errors.
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Old 02 March 2017, 02:21   #95
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Originally Posted by EugeneNine View Post
Seems to be Libs, if I leave Libs as read only it will boot but with errors.
then you have downloaded an incomplete archive, or decompressed it with a wrong or buggy tool. somthing like that. sorry i cant assist you in basic tasks on your local configuration.
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Old 02 March 2017, 02:38   #96
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md5 matches and its the standard tools. I did the same with regular old AROS Linux hosted and it works fine. I wonder if there is an issue in that build.

What does an ls -l look like on yours?

hmm, min requirements look a little steep for me old 2000.
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Old 02 March 2017, 10:24   #97
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@eXeler0

from your profil it seems to me you are one of the younger ones in the community (like me) but there are a lot of people already retired who cannot wait for another 20 years :-). And to be clear even if some of the current copyright owners (we do not know if real or only believe) die copyright not vanishes but changes ownership.

you seem to be happy with what you have but take Vampire standalone device as example. I cannot remember but I guess it has USB so you need support for that. Also Vampire supports RTG so the OS has to support that too. We saw the problems around that when discussion about P96 started. The same would be true for USB. Poseidon on 3.X is copyrighted and cannot be used. Of course Poseidon could be legally backported from Aros but would it not make more sense to invest the time in adapting and improving Aros. You will have finally two choices on it, 3.X patched as it is and a modern successor. Your choice.

Since I returned a couple of years ago the same senseless discussions start again and again to open source 3.X. It will not happen for lots of reasons and even if there would be a chance the community will not contribute the requested sum because all will talk like you... they are happy with what they use, why giving money to open sources.

"until 68k AROS becomes 100% compatible and almost as fast as native OS 3.x"

BTW this attitude to just ask and moan but not doing anything is why Aros 68k is not there. The Aros devs work in free time and do what they like, if their main interest is not 68k you cannot expect them to do the work for you just because you request that.

"And if you think its a waste of time to discuss it, what about 22 years of AROS development."

without words... what exactly are your contributions except posting on a forum?
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Old 02 March 2017, 11:05   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneNine View Post
md5 matches and its the standard tools. I did the same with regular old AROS Linux hosted and it works fine. I wonder if there is an issue in that build.
if you have a problem you shouldnt expect it to be someone elses failure in the first place, especially if others dont have this issue. if the build was faulty the build system would report errors and the archive wouldnt be available. as you see the following nightlies are missing, because something got broken while they are working on smp.

Quote:
What does an ls -l look like on yours?
Code:
 total 1172
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa      5 Feb 27 14:19 AROS.boot
drwxrwxr-x  3 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 boot
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 C
drwxrwxr-x  6 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Classes
drwxrwxr-x  4 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Demos
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8834 Feb 27 14:19 Demos.info
drwxrwxr-x  9 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Development
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8862 Feb 27 14:19 Development.info
drwxrwxr-x 14 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Devs
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8852 Feb 27 14:19 Devs.info
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8188 Feb 27 14:19 disk.info
drwxrwxr-x  7 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Emergency-Boot
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa 901120 Feb 27 14:19 Emergency-Boot.adf
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   4296 Feb 27 14:19 Emergency-Boot.info
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Expansion
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Extras
drwxrwxr-x  9 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:15 Fonts
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   9328 Feb 27 14:19 Fonts.info
-rw-rw-r--  1 wawa wawa     33 Mär  1 23:15 Fonts.uaem
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 L
drwxrwxr-x  3 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Libs
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8980 Feb 27 14:19 Libs.info
drwxrwxr-x  7 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Locale
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   9196 Feb 27 14:19 Locale.info
drwxrwxr-x  4 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Prefs
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   9460 Feb 27 14:19 Prefs.info
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa    987 Feb 27 14:19 README.txt
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   5056 Feb 27 14:19 README.txt.info
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Rexxc
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   9626 Feb 27 14:19 Rexxc.info
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:15 S
drwxrwxr-x  9 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Storage
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8992 Feb 27 14:19 Storage.info
drwxrwxr-x  5 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 System
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   9066 Feb 27 14:19 System.info
drwxrwxr-x 34 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Tests
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8932 Feb 27 14:19 Tests.info
drwxrwxr-x  4 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Tools
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8950 Feb 27 14:19 Tools.info
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 Utilities
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   9072 Feb 27 14:19 Utilities.info
drwxrwxr-x  2 wawa wawa   4096 Mär  1 23:14 WBStartup
-rwxrw-rw-  1 wawa wawa   8640 Feb 27 14:19 WBStartup.info
Quote:
hmm, min requirements look a little steep for me old 2000.
aros works with 68000 as far as i know, at least it should be compiled for it, as far as i remember there might be some asm inline dedicated for 68020. but if it is this mis an correctable oversight.

aros needs some 1.5mb ram to boot without styrtup sequence and some 6.5mb to boot to full wanderer.

hint: how does that compare to the requirements of the genuine amiga systems with less features, such as os3.9? or even how does that compare to os4 requirements?

of course it will run at a snail pace. aros is slow, and that is one of main factors that need to improve,

but now my question i have already answered before: why do you want to update your operating system on an unexpanded hardware? what advantages would that bring? dont you think it is perfect as it is for the tasks it has been built for?

nevertheless if you insist, there is a simple replacement for full fledged desktop in aros system dir. its called workbook. it is aimed at floppies and low end systems. it is just not ready, but i hear some people are using it anyway.
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Old 02 March 2017, 11:40   #99
Minuous
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@eXeler0:

I agree, it is only equivalent to OS3.1 and thus useless for modern (ie. OS3.5 or later) programs. Originally I thought it would get upgraded to handle this but it seems not...
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Old 02 March 2017, 11:42   #100
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Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
@eXeler0

from your profil it seems to me you are one of the younger ones in the community (like me) but there are a lot of people already retired who cannot wait for another 20 years :-). And to be clear even if some of the current copyright owners (we do not know if real or only believe) die copyright not vanishes but changes ownership.
Let's agree we are at different stages in life. Right now I have 2 small kids that need a lot of my attention, severely limiting heavy involvement in hobbyists projects, whatever they might be. But there are other people at completely different stages in their lives, so you can't get a fair apples-to-apples comparison. I have been in other situations when I had a lot of time and did a lot while others did nothing.. That's how it is in life.
My point with the several examples I listed was that things change eventually. I tend to think the current owners are milking a very sick cow, therefore I think throwing money at it could make them willing to part with it.
Edit: (And this is where I can currently contribute.. By supporting e.g. crowd-funding or bounties financially..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
you seem to be happy with what you have but take Vampire standalone device as example. I cannot remember but I guess it has USB so you need support for that. Also Vampire supports RTG so the OS has to support that too. We saw the problems around that when discussion about P96 started. The same would be true for USB. Poseidon on 3.X is copyrighted and cannot be used. Of course Poseidon could be legally backported from Aros but would it not make more sense to invest the time in adapting and improving Aros. You will have finally two choices on it, 3.X patched as it is and a modern successor. Your choice.
Well you can reverse that reasoning too.. How many ppl are interested in a standalone Vampire/Natami if it only runs AROS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
Since I returned a couple of years ago the same senseless discussions start again and again to open source 3.X. It will not happen for lots of reasons and even if there would be a chance the community will not contribute the requested sum because all will talk like you... they are happy with what they use, why giving money to open sources.
Ok you can speculate about that (I assume you are not a time traveler ;-) and you will right about this all the way until it actually happens.. And if it doesn't.. I can live with that too. It will be exactly the same as the last 20 years , so no big deal in that respect. You are right that a lot of other current users can also "live" with the old OS and be happy. But that's the thing.. It's those users who are the potential "customers" of an updated official OS3.x branch.. I assume, that like for me, AROS offers nothing new that they have requested without sacrificing something they'd rather keep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
"until 68k AROS becomes 100% compatible and almost as fast as native OS 3.x"

BTW this attitude to just ask and moan but not doing anything is why Aros 68k is not there. The Aros devs work in free time and do what they like, if their main interest is not 68k you cannot expect them to do the work for you just because you request that.
Trust me, I absolutely never requested anyone to work on AROS 68k for me or anyone else, I only suggested that if the 3.x source would finally become available it would make sense to merge the efforts rather than having resources spread in yet another split..

Yes, I do realize ppl work on this as a hobbyist project and have done it for decades - which shows some commitment, I respect that. Unfortunately, the same people still seem to hope that "if you build it, they will come". Well.. the ~200 ppl (I got the number from amigamap.com, but it might be wrong) who agreed with that path are already there...
I think a lot of people would turn it around and say, "if you are willing to spend time and effort, ask what ppl want then build it - and if the requests can't be fulfilled, spend your time on something more appreciated or be prepared for a lonely ride".


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
"And if you think its a waste of time to discuss it, what about 22 years of AROS development."

without words... what exactly are your contributions except posting on a forum?
I realize that anyone who has spend years on contributing doesn't wanna hear their effort is wasted. I'm not saying this to offend anyone. The value of a hobby is highly subjective anyway, so... But I'm saying it to put things into a little perspective.. @Wawa and you call discussions like this a waste of time, so I think it's motivated to ask what you call an OS 22 years in the making with so few users.
But as I said, if you are happy using it its not a waste of effort from your perspective.. Same as I don't see it a wasted effort to discuss OS 3.x0 becoming open source. It's interesting to hear all these different people pith in an tell their part of the story, even if some whine more then others ;-)

Last edited by eXeler0; 02 March 2017 at 11:54.
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