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Old 27 February 2017, 00:58   #21
E-Penguin
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Originally Posted by matthey View Post
A software only Port of AmigaOS to the Raspberry Pi gets lost in the multitude of OS options
The Pi is powerful enough to run an emulator for anything requiring the custom chips or legacy/original 68k code. Some sort of Amiga/ARM release could work well.

Look what RISC OS did: open source an OS from the 80s and make it available on modern hardware. https://www.riscosopen.org/content/
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Old 27 February 2017, 01:40   #22
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If my calculations are correct, this should work:

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Old 27 February 2017, 16:31   #23
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The reality is that most of the telecommunications lines in the world travel through the U.S. Big brother has considerable influence (and is listening) and can often persuade internet providers in remote areas to obey their law. Brazil is planning to disconnect from the U.S. infrastructure by building a fiber optic cable directly to Europe after the U.S. spying which included government and private businesses .

http://www.as-coa.org/articles/after...communications
This is an easy one to solve. Simply put the repo behind a Tor hidden service (.onion). It won't be taken down. No one is even going to know where it is hosted.

Here are the options I see:

1. Improve OS3.1 sources and publicly release DIFFs only, with scripts to rebuild against a specific hash of a specific archive of the 3.1 sources.

2. (Publicly) improve OS3.1 sources and put the whole repo behind a tor hidden service.

3. Improve AROS substantially.

4. Keep fighting with god-knows-who over god-knows-what "rights"

I prefer #2. Remember: the real issue is popular mentality. Proprietary software remains a plague, and I certainly would encourage everyone to fight it with every middle finger they can muster. Legal or not, open it all up and stop giving a shit. Its fitting, and in a way, perfect.
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Old 27 February 2017, 16:38   #24
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I am not so willing to limit my options. If AROS can be used, I would rather do that.
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Old 27 February 2017, 16:44   #25
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The only issue I've had with AROS is (lack of) drivers. I have a nice little old laptop it would work perfect on except I can't set the video resolution for example. Right now I just run linux hosted AROS on my main laptop, but doing that its just as easy to use native linux stuff so I end up never 'booting' AROS.

And AROS source is sort of hidden even though its open source because they don't want anyone who might have seen the copyrighted Amiga source from tainting the AROS source and cause them a legal issue. So it makes working with AROS a little harder as well.
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Old 28 February 2017, 02:32   #26
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Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
Note that anyone who has seen AmigaOS sources is tainted and cannot legally develop a clean room reimplementation like AROS.
Olsen has made public comments about the condition of sources on amiga.org. I would not recommend anyone who has seen the sources to publicly admit to it but I don't want to give legal advise either .

Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
The Pi is powerful enough to run an emulator for anything requiring the custom chips or legacy/original 68k code. Some sort of Amiga/ARM release could work well.
Emulators will get us everywhere and nowhere. The largest performance gain of the Raspberry Pi line has come from adding more cores and next from higher clock speeds (adjust Quake 3 benchmarks for clock speed and there is little difference between RPi 2 and 3). The cores are in order superscalar for better energy efficiency but this limits single core RISC performance.

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Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
Look what RISC OS did: open source an OS from the 80s and make it available on modern hardware. https://www.riscosopen.org/content/
The RISC OS has been reinvigorated by the Raspberry Pi because it now has very affordable native hardware. The same would happen for the Amiga if it had mass produced affordable native hardware.

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Originally Posted by hitchhikr View Post
If my calculations are correct, this should work:
Violence is never the answer, especially against the innocent. What could be more innocent than a kitten?

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Originally Posted by wXR View Post
This is an easy one to solve. Simply put the repo behind a Tor hidden service (.onion). It won't be taken down. No one is even going to know where it is hosted.

Here are the options I see:

1. Improve OS3.1 sources and publicly release DIFFs only, with scripts to rebuild against a specific hash of a specific archive of the 3.1 sources.

2. (Publicly) improve OS3.1 sources and put the whole repo behind a tor hidden service.

3. Improve AROS substantially.

4. Keep fighting with god-knows-who over god-knows-what "rights"

I prefer #2. Remember: the real issue is popular mentality. Proprietary software remains a plague, and I certainly would encourage everyone to fight it with every middle finger they can muster. Legal or not, open it all up and stop giving a shit. Its fitting, and in a way, perfect.
Hidden does not always stay hidden, especially something that becomes popular.

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Originally Posted by EugeneNine View Post
And AROS source is sort of hidden even though its open source because they don't want anyone who might have seen the copyrighted Amiga source from tainting the AROS source and cause them a legal issue. So it makes working with AROS a little harder as well.
I don't believe this is true. The AROS source code is big and awkward but I don't think it is meant as a deterrent to anybody. I seem to recall some people wanting to make it easier to dl and build. I don't think very many people with classic 68k Amigas are downloading and building it though .
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Old 28 February 2017, 08:37   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
Note that anyone who has seen AmigaOS sources is tainted and cannot legally develop a clean room reimplementation like AROS.
But how would anyone prove that? If you have just looked through the code but does not use it as a direct reference, it is hard to impossible to prove.

If only someone would get sued for breaching AmigaOS copyright, we might finally learn who truly owns the copyright for now.
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Old 28 February 2017, 08:42   #28
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Hm, you get someone who thinks he owns the rights. You only know it for sure when the judge agrees with the presumed copyright holder and you loose. And even then, maybe someone will sue about that against the one that thought he had the rights because that party thinks he has an even better case.
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Old 28 February 2017, 09:50   #29
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I see far less value in open sourcing AmigaOS that some people see to be able to see. What am I missing? Open sourcing doesn't magically make any code up-to-date, or even compilable. It doesn't magically bring along support for other hardware or software. It doesn't give you memory protection or SMP. It won't give you code integration with AROS. It probably doesn't even give you the Amiga name. I don't get the obsession with open sourcing, or the hatred against those still selling it. It seems a little unhealthy to me, especially when there's already an open source re-implementation that could really do with the extra support. With an open-source Amiga OS 3, there's a direct competitor with AROS, which will divide what miniscule resources remain in this community even further.
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Old 28 February 2017, 10:15   #30
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Generally I avoid such debates of copyright on here as sadly there are a lot of uninformed people making assumptions.

I will say one thing - some blindingly great ideas from matthey and meynaf - I would like to see that conversation rolled out more.

I will ask one thing - why such hate for Cloanto? .... I simply don't get it =(
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Old 28 February 2017, 11:54   #31
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Because Cloanto are vultures selling what is free (UAE) and what is essentially abandonware (Kickstarts). As long as Cloanto earn money selling AmigaOS, you won't see any free, open AmigaOS. And I know idiots who even pay Cloanto multiple times for the pleasure of "owning" code that Cloanto had nothing to do with in the first place.
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Old 28 February 2017, 13:28   #32
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You pay for the installer also, much more convenient to click and install an UAE-setup than doing it by hand.
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Old 28 February 2017, 15:29   #33
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Question would Cloanto be willing to work with Amiga developers to update the OS? Has anyone reached out to them directly on this? It would benefit them as well as the community if they worked with us. Again I've been away from the Amiga world for over 14 yrs so am just curious where they stand on moving forward with development.
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Old 28 February 2017, 16:04   #34
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Cloanto only has distribution rights, not development rights.
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Old 28 February 2017, 16:14   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
Because Cloanto are vultures selling what is free (UAE) and what is essentially abandonware (Kickstarts). As long as Cloanto earn money selling AmigaOS, you won't see any free, open AmigaOS. And I know idiots who even pay Cloanto multiple times for the pleasure of "owning" code that Cloanto had nothing to do with in the first place.
Thank you for your reply, I will say, with apologies my friend, that this reads more an idealogical difference as one could argue that they (cloanto) add value to the product, create a legal outlet and point of sale. - both have factual and idealogical points of view - neither of which I necessarily share.

Interestingly as I type - technically its nothing anyone couldn't do - apply for / seek a license albeit kickstart roms or workbench 3.x and make your own product, the feat then would be adding value to the product for the end user =)

Sadly I digress and in so have somewhat derailed this thread, my apologies.


Best idea for a realistic path to open source AmigaOS 3.x

I have two assumptions with this
  • I assume Open Source to mean downloadable and compilable on or for given system(s)
  • I assume AmigaOS 3.x to be the current Workbench 3.1 offered by Cloanto

1. You would need to acquire the FULL rights (not just distribution rights) to Workbench3.1 and any pertaining licenses to earlier work that is included in the current distribution of Workbench 3.1
You could achieve this with some very hard research and communication with the current relevant parties involved. there will be a lot of phone communication and letter writing.

(this in itself is much needed information for hardware/software developers)

Where applicable negotiate with the relevant license holders with purchase offers.
2. Start A GoFundMe, Indigogo or Kickstarter
It may sound stupid, but this is probably your best bet unless your uncle is a rich oil tycoon or Wall Street banker
(... ooh that 'b' was hard to say.. . ... its a tongue twister with that 'W' at the beginning )

This will take a little more research on how to start one of these instances, the legal ramifications of your project and the given agreements you have previously negotiated. I would suggest having a look at some good examples and how to maximize your reach and potential audience / market with your project.

Now, you might dismiss this response as overly obvious or just as absurd - however consider the AROS project and where it got with bounties or perhaps look on youtube on some of perhaps the most absurd Kickstarters that actually got funded.
In Closing
(wow you read all that... and notice my spelling mistake in 'banker'.... ...well played.... well played....)

If there is enough of the community left to want to make this a thing, I do believe it could be - but it would need to be done meticulously in co-operation with a well trusted group within the community and as transparent as possible (given the arrangement of some legal agreements)

One day.... when I win the lottery
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Old 28 February 2017, 16:26   #36
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You pay for the installer also, much more convenient to click and install an UAE-setup than doing it by hand.
Is it that hard to install? I think it took me less time to install FS-USE than what it takes to open a CD package (or get the cd/dvd/bluray drive out of the drawer its in).
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Old 28 February 2017, 16:35   #37
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I see far less value in open sourcing AmigaOS that some people see to be able to see. What am I missing? Open sourcing doesn't magically make any code up-to-date, or even compilable. It doesn't magically bring along support for other hardware or software. It doesn't give you memory protection or SMP. It won't give you code integration with AROS. It probably doesn't even give you the Amiga name. I don't get the obsession with open sourcing, or the hatred against those still selling it. It seems a little unhealthy to me, especially when there's already an open source re-implementation that could really do with the extra support. With an open-source Amiga OS 3, there's a direct competitor with AROS, which will divide what miniscule resources remain in this community even further.
Since none of the current 'owners' are making any changes to the code then none of those things can happen either. But releasing it to open source gives the potential that it could happen. It could just be merged into AROS even.
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Old 28 February 2017, 16:39   #38
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Originally Posted by EugeneNine View Post
Since none of the current 'owners' are making any changes to the code then none of those things can happen either. But releasing it to open source gives the potential that it could happen. It could just be merged into AROS even.
I thought they (Olsen) were doing updates to things like Kickstart etc.

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I will ask one thing - why such hate for Cloanto? .... I simply don't get it =(
Putting aside the fact that their contribution to the scene is next to nil, as idrougge illustrated, their disgusting "legal" attacks on independent sites and people who allegedly violate their "IP" (how far they can actually legally go with these IP claims is yet to be disputed) is what does it for me. That is actually destroying the scene they are feeding off of.

I will keep using this example: what good is it for the community for Cloanto to take off YouTube a video of the Amiga launch event, as they did? And to what extent are they atually allowed to do that, since what they own is, allegedly, a license to sell Kickstarts?
Come on, explain to me what good did this do and tell me why should anyone give money go these people so they go out and about and do this. While you are at it, explain t ome in which way does this video being online hurt this company: [ Show youtube player ]

What I don't understand is any praise they get: what for? What do they do to contribute? What's the big breakthrough here, because I don't see it.

Last edited by Akira; 28 February 2017 at 16:49.
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Old 28 February 2017, 16:44   #39
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Hyperion recompiled kick 3.1 from source and that is all for OS3. They prefer to waste time on their PowerPC sequel to it.
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Old 28 February 2017, 16:50   #40
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what good is it for the community for Cloanto to take off YouTube a video of the Amiga launch event, as they did?
I wondered why I couldn't find the video,
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