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Old 28 February 2003, 20:19   #41
IanS
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They obviously have a great deal of imagination when it comes to naming things!

Hmmm... why not one of these?

Toaster : The next generation.

Return of the Toaster!

Son of Toaster.

Toaster: A new beginning



The Toaster is dead... long live the Toaster 2.
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Old 01 March 2003, 06:34   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
Doesnt newtek have a windows version of the video toaster 2?
The Windows version is the Video Toaster [2]. On the Amiga it is called the Video Toaster 2000, The Video Toaster 4000 & The Video Toaster Flyer.
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Old 01 March 2003, 06:41   #43
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Originally posted by IanS
Akira, perhaps you should answer the questions I asked. There are plenty of real time effects packages available that don't rely on proprietry hardware. How many Athlon 2000+ machines and effects packages can you buy with the same money as one A4000 and a Toaster? Maybe a Toaster can outpace one machine, but how about 2, 3, 4 or more running concurrently?
Add 10,000 Athlon 2000+ machines, that still will not give you a switcher or a 10 nanasecound CG, Chroma Effects, and none MPEG or Motion JPEG video compression. The Video Toaster Flyer on the Amiga uses VTASC which is a quality way of saving video on a harddisk. It looks way better than DVD video even, which is MPEG 2. In fact the only way I know of to add a switcher to the PC is with the Video Toaster [2] card also from Newtek. It will set you back $2995 though not including the SX-8 breakout box which is another $1999. I own both so I know.
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Old 01 March 2003, 11:37   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pyromania
Add 10,000 Athlon 2000+ machines, that still will not give you a switcher or a 10 nanasecound CG, Chroma Effects, and none MPEG or Motion JPEG video compression. The Video Toaster Flyer on the Amiga uses VTASC which is a quality way of saving video on a harddisk. It looks way better than DVD video even, which is MPEG 2. In fact the only way I know of to add a switcher to the PC is with the Video Toaster [2] card also from Newtek. It will set you back $2995 though not including the SX-8 breakout box which is another $1999. I own both so I know.
From my understanding the flyer just dumps data without compression to a hard disk, which means you better have massive storage and it better be extremely fast. Other cards can capture without compression I assume, but at high resolution this would fill up a raid at 30mb/sec (or something like that) pretty quickly so its not used in its final form. If your making a DVD any footage will end up as MPEG2 so why compare the uncompressed video to the final product.

Last edited by Unknown_K; 01 March 2003 at 11:55.
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Old 01 March 2003, 20:34   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
From my understanding the flyer just dumps data without compression to a hard disk, which means you better have massive storage and it better be extremely fast. Other cards can capture without compression I assume, but at high resolution this would fill up a raid at 30mb/sec (or something like that) pretty quickly so its not used in its final form. If your making a DVD any footage will end up as MPEG2 so why compare the uncompressed video to the final product.
Because you will not always be going out to DVD, you might be going live to broadcast television, or you might have to do some video layering so you would want your footage to have the least amount of compression because if you layer several video clips you will start to get video artifacting if your video is compressed. The Flyer works with SCSI 2 hard drives and these can be found for a bargain. A 9GB drive gets you about 45 minutes of video with the Flyer.
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Old 01 March 2003, 23:16   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pyromania
Because you will not always be going out to DVD, you might be going live to broadcast television, or you might have to do some video layering so you would want your footage to have the least amount of compression because if you layer several video clips you will start to get video artifacting if your video is compressed. The Flyer works with SCSI 2 hard drives and these can be found for a bargain. A 9GB drive gets you about 45 minutes of video with the Flyer.
What resolution capture for 45 minutes of uncompressed video on a 9gb drive?
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Old 02 March 2003, 00:14   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
What resolution capture for 45 minutes of uncompressed video on a 9gb drive?
720 X 486 Full D1 , Full Screen with Overscan NTSC video. I doubled checked it on my Flyer and it is 36 minutes of video not 45.

Last edited by Pyromania; 02 March 2003 at 00:23.
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Old 02 March 2003, 00:27   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pyromania
720 X 486 Full D1 , Full Screen with Overscan NTSC video.
How is that possible with no compression?

720x486 x 30 frames a second of video = 10.368mb/sec of data
NTSC is 30 fps isn't it (29.9 something anyway)?


Your capturing 9gb in 45minites so thats 9000mb/(45min*60sec/min) = 3.3mb/sec

Which is slightly lower then the data rate I have seen for 640x480 30 fps mjpeg on the mac, same using a mpeg1 hardware card on the pc.
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Old 02 March 2003, 05:22   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown_K
How is that possible with no compression?

720x486 x 30 frames a second of video = 10.368mb/sec of data
NTSC is 30 fps isn't it (29.9 something anyway)?


Your capturing 9gb in 45minites so thats 9000mb/(45min*60sec/min) = 3.3mb/sec

Which is slightly lower then the data rate I have seen for 640x480 30 fps mjpeg on the mac, same using a mpeg1 hardware card on the pc.
I never said the Flyer has no compression you did. Maybe you got the Amiga version of the Toaster confused with the PC version (Video Toaster [2]) which is uncompressed. The Flyer does slightly compress the video signal with a technique called VTASC. The Flyer card used to cost $5000 dollars and is a double sided card. The slight compression/decompression is all done in hardware and the harddisk requirements are modest by todays standards. This board is a very advanced dual video stream card and is much nicer than MPEG and Motion JPEG hardware. Still even with VTASC the Flyer is broadcast quality and better looking the MiniDV, DVD, MPEG 2, BetaCam SP etc. I am amazed that Flyer cards sell for between $350-$700 used today, it is a bargain for what it can do.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=4598

Last edited by Pyromania; 02 March 2003 at 18:24.
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Old 03 March 2003, 10:24   #50
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Pyromania... obviously you can't get any PC stuff that in any way compares to the old Toaster. The digital video world has obviously taken a few steps backwards since then, and the whole world should now use Amiga/toaster combos to produce every bit of digital film footage ever seen. No machine on this planet can produce such good effects as the Toaster, nothing can render effects faster. Toaster is the ULTIMATE! Lightwave on a dual P4 cannot touch the old Lightwave running on your A4000, and Chromakey doesn't exist on the PC/Mac platforms.

Good job we got you here to show us the error of our ways Pyro... you'd better tell all those deluded TV studios just what they need. Especially as Amiga's are selling so well at the moment, and they are just so cheap!


Get real!

Anything that you need to do with video can be achieved on other platforms, even if YOU won't admit it.
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Old 03 March 2003, 11:11   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by IanS
Pyromania... obviously you can't get any PC stuff that in any way compares to the old Toaster. The digital video world has obviously taken a few steps backwards since then, and the whole world should now use Amiga/toaster combos to produce every bit of digital film footage ever seen. No machine on this planet can produce such good effects as the Toaster, nothing can render effects faster. Toaster is the ULTIMATE! Lightwave on a dual P4 cannot touch the old Lightwave running on your A4000, and Chromakey doesn't exist on the PC/Mac platforms.

Good job we got you here to show us the error of our ways Pyro... you'd better tell all those deluded TV studios just what they need. Especially as Amiga's are selling so well at the moment, and they are just so cheap!


Get real!

Anything that you need to do with video can be achieved on other platforms, even if YOU won't admit it.
IanS you should at least try the Amiga version of the Video Toaster Flyer before you slag it off. I have used many of the video editing solutions on the PC and Windows has turned what was once a Pro market into a low-end $60-150 ultra underpowered market with limited features. Many of the software packages are free like Microsoft's Movie Maker 2 or cheap but lack the full suite of software/hardware needed to be a true TV Studio in a Box. For example

http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0...?tag=pdtl-list

http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0...?tag=pdtl-list

http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0...?tag=pdtl-list

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...er/default.asp

There are exceptions of course. SGI Flint, Flame and Smoke systems are very nice and the PC does have a few good solutions like the Video Toaster [2] or some of the products from Canopus.

http://www.canopus.com/index.asp

But @ the low-end this market is laughable and does not even approach broadcast quality. That must be why many TV stations to this day still use Amiga based Video Toaster solutions. They are replacing them slowly with PC based Video Toaster [2] systems. Why do you think Newtek repairs Amiga Video Toaster & Flyer cards for free? Even shipping them back to you for free? I think your an alright guy IanS and you owned Amiga's @ some point in your past so that makes you cool in my book. Your right about someone buying an Amiga today better have a dealer lined up for repair/tech support or be a techie themselves. But as far as owning a used Amiga Video Toaster Newtek has your ass covered. Also Newtek has been working on a low cost PC Video Toaster [2] DV for a while. Once they release that, those low-end feature lacking slackers better run for cover.

Last edited by Pyromania; 03 March 2003 at 11:40.
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Old 03 March 2003, 11:56   #52
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Thanks for the links Pyro.

I still own an Amiga. It's still a cool little machine, if rather underpowered. I'm not saying, and never have said that the Toaster is not good, crap or anything else. It is however obsolete. As in not made any more. It's in the interest of Newtek to repair old Toasters, as these guys want you to buy their new products in the future, when cost/time constraints mean the old stuff needs replacing.

Yes, Windows movie maker is crap. But the only people who would use that program are home users who want to dabble. The Toaster is not and never was "Low End" so why not compare like with like (pricewise)? The Toaster never took off in Eurpope because it uses NTSC, whereas most of Europe uses the slightly higher quality PAL. My simple point is, that studios may invest in a Toaster 2 for their PC, or any of the other high end hardware/software... but there won't be an Amiga and original Toaster in sight these days. It's simply not practical.

Remember the Draco? Remember how much it cost? Remember the last time it was made? Even they went to PC based hardware. And not even hi-tec stuff at that. Things move on, and people like to cling to what they have, especially if they have a lot of time and money invested in equipment. But as good as the Amiga was, it's not top of the heap. Why do you think Newtek have gone to the PC platform?

Nuff said. End of conversation. No more. The evil Microsoft has me converted. AMD has my heart... I there is no more hope for me. :eek
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Old 03 March 2003, 12:15   #53
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It is a very big bummer that you guys in Europe never got the Amiga Video Toaster because of your superior PAL format. PAL is way better than NTSC. It was not Newteks fault though. Some of the Sony chips on the card were never made available in PAL. They did correct this with the Video Toaster [2] though. It works dual format NTSC/PAL out of the box. You did get Opalvision but it was never completed.
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Old 03 March 2003, 12:40   #54
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On the subject of DV effects etc, did anybody have XDVE 2? Was it any good? I only tried the first version.
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Old 03 March 2003, 12:43   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by IanS
On the subject of DV effects etc, did anybody have XDVE 2? Was it any good? I only tried the first version.
If anyone has it please put it in the zone. I also would like to try this excellent italian package. And while your @ it upload Adorage as well. It is a fine work of German software development.
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Old 03 March 2003, 12:51   #56
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Didn't they use that really cool animation format that used interlacing to only display half a frame each time? Much faster than Anim 5/7 etc.

By the way, does CDXL use any form of compression?
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Old 03 March 2003, 12:52   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by IanS
Didn't they use that really cool animation format that used interlacing to only display half a frame each time? Much faster than Anim 5/7 etc.

By the way, does CDXL use any form of compression?
Yes & Yes
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Old 03 March 2003, 13:00   #58
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As we're on the subject, and as Pyro is a good source of information (and a nice guy even if I do get on his nerves a lot)...

Is there a maximum resolution imposed by the CDXL format, and is it limited to 256 colours?

Does the SSA format look any good on a PC monitor in non interlaced mode?
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Old 03 March 2003, 13:20   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by IanS
As we're on the subject, and as Pyro is a good source of information (and a nice guy even if I do get on his nerves a lot)...

Is there a maximum resolution imposed by the CDXL format, and is it limited to 256 colours?

Does the SSA format look any good on a PC monitor in non interlaced mode?
CDXL can do HAM6 4096 colors and I think if you have an AGA machine you might even be able to create HAM8 256,000 CDXL animations but I have not tried to create anything in HAM8 with CDXL. I know for CDTV the max res and colors was 160x100 in HAM6. I will have to check on if this was the highest res that the format allowed. You might have more flexablity if you were creating CDXL content for CD32. I will shoot Carl Sassanrath an e-mail he created the CDXL format and I am sure he would not mind sharing some info with us about it. Check out aminet for some cool CDXL animations and tools like XLToolKitGUI.

http://ftp.uni-paderborn.de/aminetbin/find?CDXL

I will give some SSA animations a try on a PC monitor and check the quality. I have to warn you though I am rather spoiled now and my animation formats of choice are Video Toaster Flyer Format and Uncompressed Video Toaster [2] RTV animation files. Both of these exceed broadcast quality so SSA animations might not look very impressive to my eyes today.
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Old 03 March 2003, 13:30   #60
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Pyro you're a star!

If I can find my old copy of ClariSSA, I'll try it under emulation to see if it works. CDXL didn't take off in a big way, but I guess any anim done in HAM was never going to be that fast .

Thanks again. Saves me searching through all my old mags for the info.
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