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Old 16 January 2017, 04:35   #101
Thorham
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Originally Posted by Pat the Cat View Post
Been a long time since I played one... IIRC correctly, there are minimum requirements for playing fast samples. Accelerator and fast RAM, if you want to do so from Workbench. You can do so on any Amiga technically, but you can't do much else at the same time, on a chip RAM only / 68K machine.
Using double scan modes doubles audio DMA, so you only really need fastmem to not have the CPU be slowed down by the increased chipmem load.
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Old 16 January 2017, 04:59   #102
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Fair enough, but that particular method isn't going to work on an older machine without ECS and double scan capability.

Unless I'm missing something... Possibly.

Shocked. I just looked up where Octamed went. Had no idea it was developed so much. Kind of glad I banged on about it, it went places. Teijo Kinnunen, what a guy!
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Old 16 January 2017, 08:40   #103
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Note that HRM does not tell the whole truth, 4th channel has minimum period of 124, 3rd has 123 and so on.. (Due to way Paula>Agnus DMA requests work) If you really need 1-3 lower period
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Old 16 January 2017, 08:59   #104
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First edition HRM lists minimum period values as 123 PAL, 124 NTSC. Measured in clock ticks. That gives a total maximum playback rate of 28.867 KHz on BOTH kinds of Amiga.
Nope. Period 123 is 28836 on PAL, not 28867 - and may fail on channel 4, like Toni said. Programming manuals are often wrong
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Old 16 January 2017, 17:31   #105
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Note that HRM does not tell the whole truth, 4th channel has minimum period of 124, 3rd has 123 and so on.. (Due to way Paula>Agnus DMA requests work) If you really need 1-3 lower period
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Nope. Period 123 is 28836 on PAL, not 28867 - and may fail on channel 4, like Toni said. Programming manuals are often wrong
Ah, the joys of depending on first edition reference material.

Consider this - CBM were charging money for developer support using untested and unverified data. Addison Wesley were charging big money for a reference work to non-registered developers that was just plain wrong. There is a word for this. It's "fraud".

It's not surprising CBM filed for Chapter 11 in the end.
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Old 16 January 2017, 18:10   #106
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Consider this - CBM were charging money for developer support using untested and unverified data. Addison Wesley were charging big money for a reference work to non-registered developers that was just plain wrong. There is a word for this. It's "fraud".

It's not surprising CBM filed for Chapter 11 in the end.
NASA used Amigas for many years because it was the best documented platform they could get, and also because Amiga OS had very little overhead. NASA wanted to be able to build their own custom hw and sw and the Amiga was the best choice for that simply because the level of documentation was so exhaustive. Yes, there might have been some errors here and there, but it was still better than having almost no documentation which was the case for many competing platforms, like IBM & compatibles.

It is only fraud if they wrote incorrect information knowingly and obviously that was not the case. Some errors in the reference books had surely nothing to do with why CBM went down - that was down to bad business decisions.
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Old 16 January 2017, 18:18   #107
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It is only fraud if they wrote incorrect information knowingly and obviously that was not the case. Some errors in the reference books had surely nothing to do with why CBM went down - that was down to bad business decisions.
They put the information out without testing it as "the authoritative, final word". If it was wrong, they did not test it, and if they did not test it without making such claims, then the claims were unwarranted, and yes, it was fraud. Not by commission, but by omission. They did not check their facts.

It had everything to do with why developers abandoned the platform. Great hardware, terrible support. Of course CBM business decisions were the main reason, but if I ever had registered as a developer, and found out how shaky their documentation was, I'd have set the lawyers on them. No messing. Most people did not, they just went to Apple if they could not stomach Windows.
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Old 16 January 2017, 18:30   #108
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They put the information out without testing it as "the authoritative, final word". If it was wrong, they did not test it, and if they did not test it without making such claims, then the claims were unwarranted, and yes, it was fraud. Not by commission, but by omission. They did not check their facts.
The reason for that is that the documentation had to be available more or less at the same time as the hardware release, thus it had to be written while the hardware was still being developed. This makes it quite a lot harder to write the documentation since you have to document stuff that doesn't fully exist yet.
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Old 16 January 2017, 18:32   #109
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BULLCRAP. The first edition of Addison Wesley HRM was published in 1989. CBM bought the Amiga from Amiga INC when?

They had 5 years to test. They didn't. They just accepted that Paula worked the way as intended, and everything written in the documentation by Jay Miner and company was completely true.

They were clearly in dishonour doing that, and that is the sort of issue that wins or loses litigation cases.

Anyway, nevermind. I am very tempted to trade with Ralph Babel for an English edition of his "Bible".

That's assuming his deal is still open, of course. If not, I'll just have to settle for the German edition and make do with it.

Last edited by Pat the Cat; 16 January 2017 at 18:37.
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Old 16 January 2017, 18:38   #110
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As with any software product, you can test all you want there will be leakage.

The art is in assessing potential risks, failure modes corrective measures, etc.

Nobody sane person freaks out about and yells 'FRAUD!!11'
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Old 16 January 2017, 18:39   #111
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As with any software product, you can test all you want there will be leakage.

The art is in assessing potential risks, failure modes corrective measures, etc.

Nobody sane person freaks out about and yells 'FRAUD!!11'
They do if they want to win in court, and the Amiga wasn't a software release, neither was Paula, neither was the HRM. All solid, physical, real world objects.

American rules on this one. Not UK, not European. State of Pennsylvania rules.

Sanity isn't the issue. Liability...

... say, I wonder if the current Amiga Inc inherited that liability? That would make things interesting, over the leaked source code issue.
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Old 16 January 2017, 18:45   #112
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BULLCRAP. The first edition of Addison Wesley HRM was published in 1989. CBM bought the Amiga from Amiga INC when?
Ok, I was thinking of the official documentation as released with the Amiga.

For the errors in later works, this variation of Hanlon's Razor is a very good fit:
Quote:
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
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Old 16 January 2017, 19:36   #113
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Fair enough, but that particular method isn't going to work on an older machine without ECS and double scan capability
Probably not. In those cases you're stuck with using the CPU. Of course you can still just down sample audio tracks to 28khz, and they'll sound just fine if done with the right software.
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Old 16 January 2017, 20:04   #114
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To be fair sir, any Amiga can be technically upgraded to ECS. So it's not like owners of older Amigas are stuck with 28KHz audio.

Finding a Super Denise in DIL form can be a little time consuming, but they are available, and are a plug in replacement. Skinny Agnus DIL upgrades to fat Agnus PLCC with ECS are more tricky, but again, technically possible.

You need BOTH to gain ECS, but it's not impossible.
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Old 17 January 2017, 02:57   #115
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not impossible, but pretty darn near it to get your hands on a rejuvenator/phoenix board!
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Old 17 January 2017, 03:44   #116
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Very difficult to get if you want to hand over cash. If there are none to be had, or you cannot afford even when they do come up.

A different way is to make one with your hands. Again, not impossible, but very tricky. Not necessarily cheaper either. You pay little amounts that add up, you make mistakes, etc etc.

But the slow boat sails home, eventually.
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