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Old 03 February 2003, 23:32   #1
Tbird
 
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Problem with sound in OS 3.9!

Hey

As must of you know I have install OS 3.9 with WinUAE!!

someone also running a emulated OS 3.9?

if yes

Does your sound work 100%?

because

When I try to run a game with sound is run slow, if I run without sound, then is normal!!

Is there something wrong with my setting?

or do I just need a faster PC?
 
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Old 04 February 2003, 08:17   #2
Toni Wilen
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You didn't say anything about your pc specs or WinUAE settings and version..

JIT enabled/not enabled?
Sound buffer size?

It can't be so hard to try different settings first

What games? HD-installable games? WHDLoad games?
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Old 04 February 2003, 15:52   #3
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First my pc specs:

Athlon 1.2 Ghz
400 MB ram
Geforce 4 MX
Soundblaster Live

My WinUAE is the newest

My Winuae Settings:

Chip RAM: 2MB
Fast RAM: none
Slow RAM: nne
Z3-Fast RAM: 16 MB
RTG (Graphics card)

Rom: Kick 3.1

CPU: 68020+FPU

Emulation Speed: Fastest Possible, but maintain chipset timing

Detect idle CPU: Disabled

JIT Settings:

Cache Size: 4 MB
Hard flush: disabled Force Settings: disabled Const Jump: enabled No Flags: Enabled FPU Support: enabled

Sound:

Enabled, 100% accurate
44100 Hz
Stereo

Use Primary DirectSound Buffer: Enabled

Sound buffer size: 3

Interpolation: Disabled

It this a WHD game
 
Old 04 February 2003, 16:47   #4
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Try setting Sound buffer size: to 5 or 6 for a start.
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Old 04 February 2003, 16:58   #5
Toni Wilen
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Use Primary DirectSound Buffer: Enabled
Disable. It was accidentally left enabled by default in recent builds..
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Old 04 February 2003, 17:40   #6
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hmm....My OS 3.9 will not start in WinUAE if I disable Primary DirectSound Buffer
 
Old 05 February 2003, 09:59   #7
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Exclamation

Now, this is ALARMING!
This is even going to arise dozens of complaints of OS 3.9 users as soon as R5 is released, oh my god...
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Old 05 February 2003, 16:24   #8
Toni Wilen
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Your sound driver or configuration must be faulty... There is no way primary buffer setting can cause this problem.

Try to create new config from scratch, also check the log for differences.
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Old 06 February 2003, 20:20   #9
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I have 3.9 installed and everything runs great and I have Primary Sound Buffer disabled.

My only problem is I cannot change screen resolutions using Picaso96mode. Everythings too big (i.e. Icons and such)

Other than that I have no problems with WinUAE at all. Its great!
 
Old 14 February 2003, 16:02   #10
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OS 3.9; 040, fast as poss w/chip time, 2MB chip, 64MB z3 fast, 32MB video, every thing else set to give max quality, sound 100% acc, 44100, stereo.

PC h/w; XP1800 clocked@1850, Soltech SL75KAV mobo, 256MB ram, ASUS V8200 full on GF3 clocked lots.

Everything runs very smooth, appart from intuition gfx stuff according to the benchmark I've got an 800MHz 040!!! but intuition stuff is still slower than an A1200.

Runs OctaMED without problems (unless I use the h/w hacks in OctaMED) and AudioMaster works perfectly - haven't tried sampling from the parallel port with the amiga digitiser yet though.

Still waiting for an 060 and PPC Toni.... But FileMaster makes up for it
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Old 15 February 2003, 14:22   #11
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Syko - use p96 if intution things are slow for you I using it on OS 3.9 bb2 and works damn fine, if fact, in many things it gets close to the speed of my A4k CSPPC 060 with PicassoIV, what it very very snappy
(in fact, i still waiting to my PC do the same speed and still nothing )

Tbird - primary soundbuffer suxx - its now already mentioned on WinUAE site, thanks to autors

Toni Wilen - can i have a question? I already trying to mail you, but the email you offering into the WinUAE docs did not work, tought
So, why the fastram is limited to 8MB and one are forced then to use Z3 ram?
I mean - for more recent demos/games/apps are necesary to have a very fast and big amount of memory. Dividing the memory into two separate segments (at least that exes sees it) its not wise. Futhermore, except one crazy DKB solution, there is no Z3 fastram - everyone using fastram on CPU cards - because its fast.

SO - should not be wise to allow up to 128MB of FastRam, instead of trying to force us to use Z3 fast memory space?

The point it, that since it gets very very rarely used, then using it SHOULD and possibly WILL cause problems - especialy into some hacky Amiga programs "expecting" fastram memory at certain allocations

No dubt about stupidity of their coders, but the question stands. According to the docs about memory allocation space, there can be UP to 128MB of fastram, what i actually have into both my Amigas, A1200 with Blizzard 1260/62 and A4k CSPPC.

(im not going into the fact, that actually Phase5 with Blizzard SCSI kit allow one to use 128MB simm, with together with another 64MB simm give over 128MB of fast, because A1200 lacks of Z3 (well, mostly) and therefore WinUAE should support it too Im just asking for 128MB of fastram, instead of weird Z3 ram, never ever get used into real Amigas )
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Old 15 February 2003, 15:15   #12
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Quote:
I already trying to mail you, but the email you offering into the WinUAE docs did not work
What address? What doc-file? Which version of WinUAE?

Quote:
The point it, that since it gets very very rarely used, then using it SHOULD and possibly WILL cause problems - especialy into some hacky Amiga programs "expecting" fastram memory at certain allocations
UAE's Z3 fast RAM = RAM that requires 32-bit address = any memory expansion that requires 68020 or better CPU. 24-bit address space (68EC020 or lower) can support max about 9.5 of fast RAM.

You are right about WinUAE's 32-bit fast being located at "strange" address (0x10000000 instead of more "standard" 0x80000000) but that is requirement for working JIT-support. You can't allocate much more than about 2.5GB of virtual memory space for JIT under Windows.

Quote:
especialy into some hacky Amiga programs "expecting" fastram memory at certain allocations
There are programs that expect 32-bit memory expansion being at certain location? Urgh..

Quote:
According to the docs about memory allocation space, there can be UP to 128MB of fastram
What doc? I think this limitation is due to max size of SIMMs or something like that, this can't be real Amiga hardware limitation.
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Old 15 February 2003, 19:19   #13
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Memory and allocations...

twilen@sci.fi adress, taken from WinUAE 0.82 r2 or r3?
Now im not so sure, but it did not work, at least at this time and for me.

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at email.seznam.cz.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<twilen@sci.fi>:
195.197.172.102 does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 553 5.3.0 <twilen@sci.fi>... That address is not currently valid.
Giving up on 195.197.172.102.


I know, that EC020 and bellow CPUs cant support more memory, but i supposed that when selecting using more decent CPU (020/030/040) it shoudl allow me more fastram...
The "strange" adress is not that extremly strange, since the expansion RAM card from DKB (i cant remember his name, i barely remembering that there was word power in it, but...) most likely already using adress space like that - after all, it get fitted into the Z3 slot, so...
But its definitively nonstandard and quess, what this can cause...
About JIT - well, altrought i dont looked at the code yet, i supposed that we:
1) can live with adresspsace limited to 2,5G
2) you can, even if it means using mmu to do this trick, chynge the adresstype (at least reported for Amiga side of emulation) to whather one you heart desire

And yes, you worst nightmare come true, there ARE program expection CERTAIN memory allocation and adreses. Its called absulte adressing and even (years ago) we want kill the dudes, who did that, at the time they did it, its was relatively standard way to do thins.
Remember, genique Johny Carmack used self-modify code into Doom engine, done back at 1993

And frankly, im surprised, that you dont know much about adress allocations into real Amiga. You are probably good programator, but you also need to know the basic, on witch Amiga works. One of that was a Zorro3 specification docs, by Dave Haynie, back in 1991 - March 20, Document revision 1.10.
This document very clearly show you, that for fast-ram (expansion ram) are reserved adres space of size 128MB - so, this actually IS a HW limitation!
So, lets started with it:
$00 000 000 - $00 200 000 = Amiga Chip Memory
$00 200 000 - $00 A00 000 = Zorro II Memory Expansion Space
$00 A00 000 - $00 B80 000 = Zorro II I/O Expansion Space
$00 B80 000 - $00 E80 000 = A2000 Motherboard Register Space
$00 E80 000 - $00 F00 000 = Zorro II I/O
$00 F00 000 - $01 000 000 = Motherboard ROM
$00 100 000 - $08 000 000 = A3000 Motherboard Space
$08 000 000 - $10 000 000 = 32-bit Memory Expansion Space
$10 000 000 - $80 000 000 = Zorro III Expansion Space
...so, whats visible from this diagram at Chapter Introduction page 4 (marked as 1-4), there are time to fix and ruin some legends about 4G adressspace. So, lets translate the hexa numbers to "standard human MEgabytes - convert to dec and twice divide it by 1024 do the job, so:
0 - 2 MB = 2MB of Amiga Chip Memory
2 - 10 MB = 8MB of Zorro II Memory Expansion Space
10 - 11.5MB = 1.5MB of Zorro II I/O Expansion Space
11.5 - 14.5MB = 3MB od A2000 Motherboard Register Space
14.5 - 15MB = 0.5MB of Zorro II I/O
15 - 16MB = 1MB of Motherboard ROM
16 - 128MB = 112MB of A3000 Motherboard Space
112 - 256MB = 144MB of 32-bit Memory Expansion Space
256 - 2048 MB = 1792MB of Zorro III Expansion Space

...what means that adressspace is limited to 2G and the Z3 one are actually more close to 1.5Gby that to 4
And also that nothing more that 144MB can any CPU accelerator on A3/4000 CPU slot allow.
Since this space is reserved for 32bit Memory Expension Space.

Tought its possible to use MMU to redirect and map the memory to wheather adress is desired, the limit was set right there. And since even accelerator need some memory for their bios and inicialization (PicassoIV are very conservative, with some features shawed off eat only 128K into Z3 mode, CV3D eat 0.5MB into Z2 mode for registers mapping and itno Z3 thigs turn even worse, so...) - so the 128MB is very close to possible practical limits.

Hope this small lesson dont puzzled you too much and i also hope you can change WinUAE memory allocations to be more-like real Amigas, witch will result into more smooth operation of your WinUAE - a desired goal, is not it?

At least, i have few suggestions - please set fastram priority to +30 like the A3000 using (its wise, +20 is sometimes not enought) and change the bandwitch to 32bites wide - at least to AIBB stop complaining about it.
VBR should be also into fastram, tought
...and even expansion library not must be into chipram

Orginal docs of DaveHaynie you can DL there:
http://www.thule.no/haynie/
...ane the one right there:
www.thule.no/haynie/zorroiii/docs/zorro3.pdf
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Old 15 February 2003, 20:10   #14
Toni Wilen
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Quote:
twilen@sci.fi adress,
This account has been inactive many years..

Quote:
And yes, you worst nightmare come true, there ARE program expection CERTAIN memory allocation and adreses. Its called absulte adressing and even (years ago) we want kill the dudes, who did that, at the time they did it, its was relatively standard way to do thins.
Of course I know absolute addressing, but programs that need 68020+ and 32-bit memory but use absolute addressing are so badly broken I don't care if they work or not.

Quote:
And frankly, im surprised, that you dont know much about adress allocations into real Amiga
My main goal is A500 compatibility so I have never needed to know how 32-bit addresses are reserved.

Quote:
This document very clearly show you, that for fast-ram (expansion ram) are reserved adres space of size 128MB - so, this actually IS a HW limitation
It is only recommended A3000 memory allocation, this does not mean there is HW limitation. My A1200 32-bit RAM for example is located at 0x68000000-0x68F70000..

Quote:
Hope this small lesson dont puzzled you too much and i also hope you can change WinUAE memory allocations to be more-like real Amigas, witch will result into more smooth operation of your WinUAE - a desired goal, is not it?
Yes and no. A500 emulation's main goal is compatibility, speed can be sacrificed. But 68020+ emulation's main goal is speed.

btw: NEVER believe in Amiga documentation or specs, always test with the real thing first... You'll be surprised how documentation and practise differs..


Quote:
and change the bandwitch to 32bites wide
All memory is 32-bit, even chip ram in non cycle-exact mode..
But of course it would be nice to report correct width...

Last edited by Toni Wilen; 15 February 2003 at 20:19.
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Old 16 February 2003, 11:41   #15
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Wink Well, welll... =8-)

The email - well, i now have got the correct one. Thx!

Dont hate some nice demos, just because they used hardwired adress. WHDload fix translate then, using MMU, to the reall one. ...sadly, MMU is not supported yet, as well, as 68030 cpu (at least the EC one, W/O MMU should be, its only very very little diferent from the 68020 - one or two obscure instructions are missing and the caches has go diferent organization, together with burst/noburst read modes - in fact, 030 is the only one cpu, where you can tweak with burst reading mode INDEPENDENTLY on enabled/disabled caches Coders know, how to use it ...with 040/060, caches are hardwired to burst mode od reading (filing always whole cacheline, 4 longs))
...BTW, you should correct the mistake, where WinUAE claims that can emulate 68040 - its a 68EC040 in fact, because it dont (sad sad sad ) feature a MMU...

A500 compatibility? Jesus christ! Better lets focus on wheather A4k is done that obsolete A500. Old games is much better to run from WB, featuring WHDload - they get fixed to work, added mostly hiscores saving and load immediatelly and works nicely - in fact, many are damn improved, so, i would drop the A500 thing.

Nope, the specifications dont "recommend", they SET things how they are made =8-) At least into A3k and A4k machines. Low-end "crap" A1200 are not worth mentioning, since there is no Zorrospace, and manufacturers of memory/cpu boards mostly creating very very strange beasts
Even the best, Phase5, did not create a perfect autoconfig boards - they are more "autohacking", for what i have to add one more reboot, to get exec into fastram and NOT hell chipram, cause thats damn slow!
They just poke their memory directly into memorylist, AFTER exec inicialization (they cant done it earlier this hacky way =;-)) - witch means that vital system parts get resident into chipram (exec, SSP and VBR), what is not tolerable when come to reall Amiga, where is so damn diference between adressing fast and chip ram in terms of speed - witch can be even more compromised by active DMA (i mean hi-res laced HAM8 screen, for example )

So, its better to forget some HW hacks and look at how things can be done properly and for the BIG Amigas, not their little crappy bros

My Blizz1260 also starting its fastram at $44 000 000 - $4B F7F FFF (128MB machine, 0,5MB for rom remaping, so, 127.5MB)

But this is just crappy A1200 shit =:-)))

Ah! 68020+ and speed? Then the goal is missed. My A4k with full UW scsi settings and to full AOS 3.9bb2 including utils, tools and textures, to stoped flickign with HDD, boting 6-7sec!
My WinUAE on 80G 7,2k RPM drive and such boting about, wait - 29 sec! Should not be something done with this?
Maybe faster reboot/adding the resident rom modules by AOS 3.9 bb2 to A1200 rom??

Futhermore, speed? Demo ThugLife, fixed for WHDload or "as it is" running about 15-17fps on 030/50 A1200, and over 25-30fps on A4k 060/50 or A1200 060/62.
On WinUAE the very same demo:
a) work only first few scenes, then sound only (under WHDload or alone)
b) doing about 2-3 frames per second on 1,1Ghz P3-like machine.

I know, that bitmaping is slow on intel, i know that some weird code (but for WHDload its fixed, so it run well on 060!!!) can run very slow - but at least the booting time should not be that HORRIBLE, as it it.
Sending you email about it

And franky - im willing to sacrifice some speed in order to get the emulation more correct that the memory mappings perfect - in fact it should only help compatibility, whats are still IMHO very low. ThugLife/Essence (coded by Jamie Skarla) should run, and demos as Tint/TBL also =;-)
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Old 16 February 2003, 12:11   #16
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A500 compatibility? Jesus christ! Better lets focus on wheather A4k is done that obsolete A500. Old games is much better to run from WB, featuring WHDload - they get fixed to work, added mostly hiscores saving and load immediatelly and works nicely - in fact, many are damn improved, so, i would drop the A500 thing.
HUH???? It seems you want something that UAE isn't meant to be. A500 compatibility is main goal. If "strange" programs work in 68020+ mode, great, but don't expect too much. I also don't care about WHDload because it makes programs too compatible

Emulated 68020+ Amigas are just "generic" models. UAE won't emulate specific A3000 or A4000 or expanded A2000 models.

Quote:
My WinUAE on 80G 7,2k RPM drive and such boting about, wait - 29 sec! Should not be something done with this?
My WinUAE WB boots in 5 seconds. And btw, thats yet another "great" bug report. What configurations you tried? Sound settings? JIT on/off etc..

Seems like configuration error if you get so slow speed..
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Old 16 February 2003, 14:00   #17
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Unhappy Config problem?

I dont think that the booting slow speed is a config problem. In fact, i optimied my config like hell and tweaking it, enabling disabling JIT, hard flush and so on - did not help at all

But i already send you email regarding this matter, so, please, take a look.

There you have also included my WinUAE config file, so, take a look...


BTW, most folks want to use WinUAE instead of their Amigas, so, thats why A500 compatibility is a relic

Keep it for yourself into the 68000/010 and more compatible mode/modes, but please give us MMU and more A4k system compatbility (no, forget about anything worser!) for more decent and recent apps, thanks!
Attached Files
File Type: uae novy config.uae (6.2 KB, 124 views)
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Old 16 February 2003, 14:06   #18
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Re: Config problem?

Quote:
Originally posted by trodas
I dont think that the booting slow speed is a config problem. In fact, i optimied my config like hell and tweaking it, enabling disabling JIT, hard flush and so on - did not help at all

But i already send you email regarding this matter, so, please, take a look.
Make sure primary sound buffer-checkbox is disabled and resave config.

This fixed my slow booting problems.
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Old 16 February 2003, 14:14   #19
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Big grin Dont worry...

...it is already disabled You can check for yourself with my config I reading the WinUAE site, so
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Old 16 February 2003, 14:38   #20
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try to enable cpu idle and disable full collision (Is there even any Amiga programs that use odd bitplanes to even bitplanes collisions, CLXDAT bit 0)

Quote:
but please give us MMU and more A4k system compatbility (no, forget about anything worser!) for more decent and recent apps, thanks
What apps? I don't think there are apps that need absolute addresses

MMU would be very nice to have but speed penalty is probably too high..
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