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Old 29 December 2016, 14:03   #81
Mr.Flibble
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Oh yeah, I'm sure you're thinking of building something "Universal" to cover all of them and minimise the costs, but I'd be very surprised if anything was possible under €75...

Looking forward to see what's next though!
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Old 29 December 2016, 14:51   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Flibble View Post
Yeah, new keyboards from scratch isn't going to be cheap...

There's what, four or five different keyboard types for the amiga?

A600
A500
A1200
A3/4000
A1500/2000 (CDTV?)

Not sure if the A1000 is the same as the A2000 type or not off the top of my head? (Connections etc)
Actually, A500, CDTV and A2000-3000-4000 use the same keyboard (apart from the casing, obviously), and the only difference to the A1200 is in the membrane; the rest of the mechanism is identical.
That leaves the A600 and A1000 out, but the A1000 can use A2000 keyboards as well with the correct cable.

When looking at the amount of components in a keyboard mechanism, you might think that its manufacture is expensive, but I'd guess that the big cost is in mounting all those components, most of which are actually identical and thus can be mass produced. If sold as a kit, the manufacturing costs should not be that high.
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Old 30 December 2016, 02:31   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
Actually, A500, CDTV and A2000-3000-4000 use the same keyboard (apart from the casing, obviously), and the only difference to the A1200 is in the membrane; the rest of the mechanism is identical.
I've several of the keyboards sat in front of me at the moment...

The CDTV, A2000/3000 & 4000 I can see being very similar (The A2000 has a different connector into the computer, but that's it iirc), but the A500 has the power/drive light on the PCB which the others don't have, and the A1200 version doesn't have any of the keyboard interface logic on it as it's on the motherboard instead...

With the A600, that's four different versions (Excluding the A1000) unless a modular design can take care of the differences?
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Old 30 December 2016, 06:06   #84
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Yes, the PCBs are slightly different but the keycaps are interchangable between CDTV/A500/A1200/etc. and most of them are also compatible with the green membrane A600 keyboard. The A600 has a few different size keys, so they have solved this by adding those extra keys like the smaller space bar/Right Alt/Shift/etc. which means you can use the set you buy for either a full size keyboard version or an A600.
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Old 30 December 2016, 10:00   #85
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I can imagine keyboards could present a lot of difficulties. As pointed out you have several variations, normal layout and A600 (and A1000 layout), motherboard controller with flatflex connection (A600 and A1200 variations), keyboard mounted controller with various connectors/pinouts (A500 SIL with 2 LED signals, external keyboards - (A1000 and/or) A2000/A3000, A4000/CD32, CDTV) not a big deal to wire the correct connectors though), housings for external keyboards, as we know plastic moldings are expensive.

How much demand is there? There are already some spare parts, new membranes for A500 and A600, NOS keyboards for the A1200 have been available in the past but I don't know if there are still any around now, keyboards from dead or towered Amigas etc. The Raspberry Pies and MiST boards with Keyrah V2s in new A1200 shells is unlikely to be a large market unless A1200.net have more plans in that direction, A1200 Reloaded isn't anything more than an overdue announcement so far and Apollo/Vampire are yet to reveal there stand alone solution(s). It will be very interesting to see what they come up with for the kickstarter, I suspect they will need to have some form of attractive new Amiga system to offer or some other market I haven't thought of if the keyboard production costs are significant.
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Old 30 December 2016, 15:19   #86
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My 0.02 cents worth on original Amiga keyboards...

... the A1000 keyboard was manufactured in Japan, and has amazing longevity. From a mechanical engineering viewpoint, it was and remains the best Amiga keyboard. It can even connect to an A600 or A1200 with some modificaction to those machines (FPGA header to the motherboard). The snag with the design is it lacks some keys (around the keypad) which is actually used by some Amiga software developed for later Amigas.

If people are going to sit down and design new keyboards for old machines, or new keyboard interfaces for new keyboards to fit old machines, they should understand which keys are necessary for Amiga software to be fully functional.

BEFORE sharpening their pencil / reaching for their CAD package.

I am very glad that the KS has reached their goal. Now please excuse me, I've got a 3D scanner to finish building.

Last edited by Pat the Cat; 30 December 2016 at 15:31.
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Old 30 December 2016, 16:43   #87
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It would be cool to have a mechanical keyboard like Cherry MX on the Amiga, although I am not sure it would fit as they are quite thick.
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Old 30 December 2016, 20:22   #88
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Hey Phil,

While we're on the topic of keyboards and the A1200 cases are getting shipped out soon, any chance of getting some LED's for the A1200's made either as a separate part, or together with a (hypothetical) new keyboard?
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Old 30 December 2016, 21:01   #89
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Heh, I see LEDs as the biggest obstacle in case you want to make a new Amiga keyboard/case.
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Old 30 December 2016, 21:04   #90
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The PCBs are easy to make but I don't think you can find original-looking wide LEDs for them. At least I haven't been able to. It just doesn't look the same to put several LEDs next to each other.
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Old 31 December 2016, 00:28   #91
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However, making a piece of transparent plastic with the same dimensions as the original LED and mounting it on top of a small modern one is a solution that might even be possible with a good 3D printer.
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Old 31 December 2016, 00:36   #92
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Alternatively, just fill the holes with a clear varnish. Let it dry. Mount smaller LEDs underneath the holes.

The only truly transparent plastic that will work on most home 3D printers is natural pure PLA. It tends to delaminate very easily and isn't very good for printing, Tends to grind up extruder gears on the printer too too (very scratch resistant).

Beleive me, I've tried using the stuff.

Vik Oliver did the world a favour in first using PLA as a filament, but without additives, you need a VERY tough extrusion mechanism to make it work. Harder than stainless steel.

With additives, PLA is the easiest filament to print with. The transparent pure stuff is a nightmare. Although the legendary Nophead found one use for it - clearing blockages from nozzles.

You COULD use translucent PLA, if the colours were right. That prints very well, and would let light of a specific colour through the window.

Laser cut perspex is another way. Very accurate. Or polycarbonate. Snag with that approach is, you would have to glue them into place. With a plastic printed part, you could print a lip on the underside for attachment.

Last edited by Pat the Cat; 31 December 2016 at 00:56.
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Old 31 December 2016, 01:17   #93
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Considering the small amounts of plastic needed, it makes sense to contract printing to a contractor with a professional printer.
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Old 31 December 2016, 01:28   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
Considering the small amounts of plastic needed, it makes sense to contract printing to a contractor with a professional printer.
Alternatively, you can source a local 3D printer to you that can print a model in the material of your choice.

http://3dhubs.com

Printers are not really for big production runs. Prototyping and occasional repairs, fair enough.

An extruded part, which is what the Kickstarter was all about, is much, much better. But very expensive to set up initially.
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Old 31 December 2016, 09:18   #95
amenophis
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To All,

Regarding Keyboards, patience guys. Still R&D'ing it.
I think it's an understatement saying that this is a challenge!
Nothing near Cases or Keycaps

LED's? Well i would lie saying the Team haven't thought of it but first let us continue the work on keyboard.

Keyboard might not be the next KS campaign anyway as R&D isn't quite done yet. But it will happen rest assured.


In the mean time and if you allow me:
- For those who haven't supported the Keycaps Campaign yet - JUST DO IT!


Let's crush these Strech Goals!

- Another awesome CD ALBUM is to be added after the one from DaXX.
- Believe me when i say DaXX album is pure DOPE!!
Gosh I simply can't stop listening..



Cheers & Happy new year.

Phil
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Old 31 December 2016, 09:58   #96
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Let's crush these Strech Goals!
Looks like we made it to the next one - Danish keyboard layout which is the one I was hoping to get.
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Old 02 January 2017, 00:23   #97
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the "CD32 Dual Color Scheme" together with the gray case is bad ass
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Old 02 January 2017, 07:26   #98
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Spanish and Italian layout goal reached.
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Old 02 January 2017, 08:17   #99
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Wish I had backed the case kickstarter lol made sure I backed this one tho
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Old 03 January 2017, 04:56   #100
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And the final listed layout stretch goal for Switzerland has now also been reached (thanks to the guys at ppa.pl I assume for the big jump).

What are the "missing" layouts if keyboards actually existed?
Online documentation for SetKeymap says:
"Keymaps include CDN,CH1,CH2,D,DK,E,F,GB,I,IS,N,S,USA0,USA1,USA2."
Canadian(?), Swiss 1(?), Swiss 2(?), German, Danish, Spanish(?), French, English UK, Italian, Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish, English USA 1 2 and 3.

There may have been more layouts created for later Amigas as it was sold in more territories than just those languages would cover, not least Poland.

I assume the missing ones are "minority" layouts, Iceland has a population of only around 300,000. Do most Canadians use US keyboards with French Canadian being the alternative? Most Swiss speak German (65%) but there is also the French and Italian spoken widely so I assume the two layouts cover those variations somehow between them.
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