English Amiga Board Amiga Lore


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Retrogaming General Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 22 October 2016, 21:41   #1
turrican9
Registered User
turrican9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Norway
Age: 40
Posts: 613
What do we think about scanlines and having them on flatscreens?

So do you use scanlines on your emulator or real Amiga + Indivision scandoubler or in any other way when using flatscreens? Are scanlines important for you?

I've noticed by looking at videos and pictures that a monitor like the Commodore 1084S has very similar scanlines to what Indivision ECS or AGA MK2 can produce
turrican9 is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 22 October 2016, 22:27   #2
demolition
Unregistered User
demolition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Copenhagen / DK
Age: 37
Posts: 3,253
I like the scanlines produced by the Indivision ECS, but not the ones you get on an AGA MkII. The ones on the ECS are soft and looks very much like real CRT scanlines while the ones on the MkII are just hard stripes.
demolition is offline  
Old 22 October 2016, 23:45   #3
apex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Amigaplanet
Posts: 301
MKI makes better scanlines, but scanlines must be!
apex is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 00:09   #4
turrican9
Registered User
turrican9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Norway
Age: 40
Posts: 613
I also think scanlines look good on the indy ECS. However, the 50Hz mode will reset back to 62Hz at most coldboots. So this kinda ruined it for me. And the AGA MK2 has no Vsync. I stick to BenQ BL 702A LED screens connected directly to RGB. Very smooth and looks good. However, no scanlines.
turrican9 is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 02:39   #5
Nobby_UK
Registered User
Nobby_UK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 825
I do not miss Scan-lines.
Nobby_UK is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 06:28   #6
idrougge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 2,983
Never used them.

Then again, to me, emulators are pure tools and not for serious work or play.
idrougge is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 10:14   #7
apex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Amigaplanet
Posts: 301
Emulator tools? Indivision is hardware and the scanlines make the picture looking like on my old 1084.
apex is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 10:31   #8
demolition
Unregistered User
demolition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Copenhagen / DK
Age: 37
Posts: 3,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by apex View Post
Emulator tools? Indivision is hardware and the scanlines make the picture looking like on my old 1084.
It is still 'scanline emulation' because they are not real scanlines.. But if done properly, I like the scanline emulation as it makes it a lot more convenient if you can use modern monitors while keeping the feel of the old ones.
demolition is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 11:31   #9
Mad-Matt
Longplayer

Mad-Matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lincoln / UK
Age: 38
Posts: 1,580
Send a message via ICQ to Mad-Matt Send a message via MSN to Mad-Matt
Scanlines was not something to get excited about on a crt and was an annoying side effect of the technology of the day and usually only visible when sitting too close to the screen. If it was possible to produce and buy a super sharp pixel perfect crt with no visible lines back in the day that manufacturer would have cleaned up. I don't understand why you would want to put them back onto a modern flat screen destroying the image they are trying to show.

Emulation of scanlines in software is usually pretty bad as well and nothing like a real crt as they only emulate one aspect of it ..the scanlines making the image dark and not the glow or the flicker which helps blend them in. I don't remember playing an game with clearly visible black lines running through them.
Mad-Matt is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 11:37   #10
DamienD
Global Moderator

DamienD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London / Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 8,984
Scanlines for me on every emulator that I use; be it WinUAE / MAME / SNES9x etc...

I usually set them at 50% as not to darken the screen too much though.

Here's an old thread where you can vote "Scanlines or NO scanlines?": http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=28834
DamienD is online now  
Old 23 October 2016, 11:42   #11
demolition
Unregistered User
demolition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Copenhagen / DK
Age: 37
Posts: 3,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad-Matt View Post
Emulation of scanlines in software is usually pretty bad as well and nothing like a real crt as they only emulate one aspect of it ..the scanlines making the image dark and not the glow or the flicker which helps blend them in.
Proper scanline emulation can make it look almost 100% like a real CRT, including the glow and curvature of the screen.

The reason the black lines are there is because most games are running non-interlaced modes while the line thickness on the screen was designed for interlaced screens which had twice as many lines. On low res displays like the 1084, the scanlines would not be as pronounced as they were on high res displays - typically multi-sync ones with smaller dot pitch.
demolition is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 12:37   #12
dlfrsilver
CaptainM68K-SPS France
dlfrsilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melun nearby Paris/France
Age: 40
Posts: 7,066
Send a message via MSN to dlfrsilver
most of the time, graphics are ugly without scanlines. This because graphics were made back in the day with "scanlines in mind". Without you have all sorts of imperfections appearing on the screen.
dlfrsilver is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 12:45   #13
dirkies
Zone Friend

dirkies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium
Age: 44
Posts: 1,175
Agree with dfrsilver. It just does not look like the real thing without scanlines. So here too always scanlines for retro please
dirkies is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 12:57   #14
Mad-Matt
Longplayer

Mad-Matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lincoln / UK
Age: 38
Posts: 1,580
Send a message via ICQ to Mad-Matt Send a message via MSN to Mad-Matt
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
most of the time, graphics are ugly without scanlines. This because graphics were made back in the day with "scanlines in mind". Without you have all sorts of imperfections appearing on the screen.
They also made gfx with rf/composite connection in mind taking advantage of the peculiarities of those signals but that didn't stop us wanting to go rgb/scart to get a pixel perfect image and not as intended imperfections.

Interestingly I do like the RF filter in the Spectaculator emu. It does bring back that blurry look and yellow hue around blacks the old spectrum had when connected to an ordinary rf tv.
Mad-Matt is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 12:59   #15
apex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Amigaplanet
Posts: 301
Let the picture speak.
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2561.JPG
Views:	94
Size:	58.8 KB
ID:	50573

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2562.JPG
Views:	83
Size:	35.5 KB
ID:	50574

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2563.JPG
Views:	72
Size:	47.0 KB
ID:	50575

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2564.JPG
Views:	76
Size:	41.3 KB
ID:	50576

I love the scanlines of my Indivision MKII.
apex is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 13:16   #16
turrican9
Registered User
turrican9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Norway
Age: 40
Posts: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by apex View Post
Let the picture speak.
Attachment 50573

Attachment 50574

Attachment 50575

Attachment 50576

I love the scanlines of my Indivision MKII.
Looks really good. Is that an old LCD screen? And what resolution are you using on the MK2? Also, is the scanlines at 75% or 50%.. ? Can we get a picture so we can see your whole setup?
turrican9 is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 14:02   #17
apex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Amigaplanet
Posts: 301
My PAL 50hz screen for games:
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2567.JPG
Views:	56
Size:	48.0 KB
ID:	50577

My PAL Interlace Screen for Workbench:
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2568.JPG
Views:	51
Size:	44.2 KB
ID:	50578

Important: TFT must support 50hz and a native resolution of 1280x1024. The Amiga screens must be half of this size.

Also important h offset and v offset for the perfect position. Do not use overscan tool.
apex is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 14:05   #18
apex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Amigaplanet
Posts: 301
X-Bench:
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2569.JPG
Views:	36
Size:	30.8 KB
ID:	50579

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2571.JPG
Views:	43
Size:	37.2 KB
ID:	50580

Monitor is a Sony SDM-M81 which works from 48hz.
apex is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 14:36   #19
turrican9
Registered User
turrican9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Norway
Age: 40
Posts: 613
thanks for the pictures, apex. So on my AGA MK2 I tried to make a custom resolution that will look identical to what the Indy ECS or RGB directly to BenQ BL 702A will output. These units will output 720x576i resolution in PAL lo res 50Hz. Made a very similar resolution on my AGA MK2 in both hi res and lo res to avoid the delay when switching between screen modes. Also, in 640x512 some games will not show correctly, like pinball dreams. Of course, 720x576 will not fill the screen, but everything will show correctly. I am not using 50Hz on the AGA MK2 but 60Hz.

My question is will the scanlines show correctly on a res like this or do they only show correctly in 640x512?
turrican9 is offline  
Old 23 October 2016, 16:53   #20
idrougge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 2,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by apex View Post
Important: TFT must support 50hz and a native resolution of 1280x1024. The Amiga screens must be half of this size.
More often than not, the Amiga screen isn't half that size.
idrougge is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CRT Scanlines John Pillow support.FS-UAE 36 23 June 2015 20:07
Scanlines or NO scanlines? Ironclaw Retrogaming General Discussion 457 07 October 2010 00:30
Another scanlines effect Leandro Jardim request.UAE Wishlist 6 27 June 2010 19:37
Scanlines Ciussippa support.WinUAE 1 21 September 2003 10:19
Scanlines dreamkatcha support.WinUAE 8 16 April 2002 12:02

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.22008 seconds with 12 queries