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Old 06 July 2016, 05:43   #121
wawa
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Aros 68k will come into its own once Vampire is readily available I think. I will most certainly be installing it on at least one of my Amiga's, probably the A2000 once it has a vampire.

I do not think that anymore... I thought it would expecially after the vampire / apollo devs said it would be their main platform for new development. But there was a partly hateful reaction by parts of the community, people want their 3.X with their beloved patches, then it will never run as fast on 68k as 3.X did or does (different heritage) and from what I read I think Gunnar is still preferring 3.X, Aros would be plan B so to say because you get it free of charge and developers work on it for free. At the same time he is still looking at 3.X. That is no convincing concept (at least for me) so I am not involved there anymore. We will see what future will bring.
thats all understandable, and i have never expected anything else. apollo team would have hard times imposing aros on their customers. as thoram says it needs improvements. but as long as people only complain and do not bother to contribute nothing will change of course. its been said thousand times.
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Old 06 July 2016, 07:44   #122
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1) I don't know of any.
2) You can boot with 1.x to 3.1 ROMs since it just loads its own custom ROM images into RAM and reboots into them.
3) SFS, FFS, OFS.
Thanks.


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1.almost. 68k nightly is isch an iso, but it needs few adjustments before it will boot on your 1200. good news a1200 ide is well supported by aros, so after that it will boot dependably. you can use aros vision too, but it is a bit, lets say, "bloated" in comparison to a nightly that consists basically of 20mb.

2. you can boot (softkick) from aros from an amiga kickstart, when you add an appropriate command on the beginning of your startup sequence. im not sure if it is present in aros vision, outta the box, certainly not in the nightly.

3. ..pfs3, which is one id choose.
Thanks. I can probably softkick using the 'acatune -maprom <romfile>' command for the accelerator, never tried though.

Are these the nightly builds you refer to?

http://aros.sourceforge.net/nightly1.php
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Old 06 July 2016, 08:24   #123
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Bloated end user code written in high level languages which only works because there are X number of cores running over GHz speeds, and it still lags more often than not.
Most programs out there are still written in C++ and I doubt anyone reasonable would call this a high level language. Python, Ruby, Lisp, Haskell, ML are high level languages but they represent a minuscule fraction of the bloated programs you mention (10% at most and I'm probably too generous by an order of magnitude).
Bloat has nothing to do with high level, it also has to do with complexity and feature set.
I read a lot of people dreaming about small and efficient programs of the old days but you cannot really compare the feature list of DPaint and Photoshop, the latter offers literally thousand times more features than the former so of course it is going to be bigger.

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I admire developers like David Braben who developed games that worked sufficient on 64kb 8-bit computers, the tricks of demo developers were astonishing and s on. But times have changed. At that time a lot of efforts were made to let it fit on disks and run on limited hardware but not voluntary in all cases... I can remember reading of one developer that moaned that he has to invest more time in optimizations than in game play. Commercial developers then solved it their way... they dropped support
As you said they did it because they had no choice and all dreamt of bigger and faster computers, which the Amiga was. I am not sure why we should regret that the movement continued after the Amiga? There are no reasons to think that programs would not have grown in size on that platform as well.

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All this AmiBlitz talk reminds me of something else we need on 68k Macs.
PYTHON!!!!
Python is THE defacto language for modern development. I don't think you can do Blender3D now without Python.
So yeah. 68K Python. It might be MORE important than anything else I listed because DEVELOPERS...
Python has lost a lot of its popularity IMO, it is a nice language but on the Amiga it is going to be slow as hell, especially on 68k.

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It sounds like you're lamenting that games like ED don't fit on a floppy disk any more. If that's not what you mean then you have my profuse apologies (you can also have them for my being here since that appears to have somehow upset you). I'm just pointing out that the massive difference in size that you don't like does have some substantial benefits.
This, a thousand times.
Although I concur that the video games industry could use (way) more procedural generation, these sizes have a pretty good explanation: assets, assets, assets.

If you want Elite Dangerous to look and sound beautiful on a 2k screen you must accept that it will take several GB because that is what is needed to render quality images onscreen. Daedalus is right that most textures are around 1MB in size and they have to when your screen is 2k+, it's either that or the result is an ugly N64 fest of blurriness.

I currently work on a game where the landscape is a patch of around 400km square of terrain. If anyone here can find a way for this to fit under 64 MB just for the heightmap you guys are most welcome but I won't be holding my breath.
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Old 06 July 2016, 10:58   #124
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Yuk, Python Why not Lua?
Frankly, because I've never heard of Lua until just now.

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Python has lost a lot of its popularity IMO, it is a nice language but on the Amiga it is going to be slow as hell, especially on 68k.
I don't see Python loosing any popularity. It's the the language that has basically fulfilled the promise of BASIC. Anything that isn't based on it, has either included it, or is working to include it as it's scripting language.

Fair point about the speed, but I think we can assume anyone seeking the kind of apps on MY Amiga wishlist are going to have at least some kind of acceleration. My interest in the Amiga without a Vampire board is virtually non-existent.

There is a fundamental divide in the entire Retro community. A Luddite movement who thinks anything but a 1.3 KS with a floppy drive is kind of sin, and those of us who want a neo-nostalgia.

The fact is, the only way worth doing anything NEW for the Amiga, is the Neo-nostalgia path. Otherwise development is too much of a wasted effort for too much of Niche Market.
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Old 06 July 2016, 20:50   #125
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's There is a fundamental divide in the entire Retro community. A Luddite movement who thinks anything but a 1.3 KS with a floppy drive is kind of sin, and those of us who want a neo-nostalgia.
The problem is when people from one side of the fence call others Luddite as if they had access to an objective truth about what the proper use of an Amiga should be.

I have no interest for neo-nostalgia, I am interested in getting the most out of a fixed system which in his time was ingenious and powerful. That seems like a hobby as valid as getting the most out of a hike in the mountains, or out of whatever enjoyable activity you prefer.

The software I need serves this purpose. I do not need new software to make the Amiga relevant. The Amiga will never be relevant again unless it changes hands and gets a massive overhaul that most of the community will disapprove of because it will then resemble a PC/Mac anyway.

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The fact is, the only way worth doing anything NEW for the Amiga, is the Neo-nostalgia path. Otherwise development is too much of a wasted effort for too much of Niche Market.
The fact is that this is an opinion and not a fact.

Also, mathematically this will always be false: there cannot be a bigger market than the stock models by definition. All other derivatives have necessarily less units. This is not to say that they are not valuable but just a reminder of a mathematical reality.

Last edited by ReadOnlyCat; 06 July 2016 at 20:56.
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Old 06 July 2016, 21:04   #126
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Most programs out there are still written in C++ and I doubt anyone reasonable would call this a high level language. Python, Ruby, Lisp, Haskell, ML are high level languages but they represent a minuscule fraction of the bloated programs you mention (10% at most and I'm probably too generous by an order of magnitude).
Bloat has nothing to do with high level, it also has to do with complexity and feature set.
I read a lot of people dreaming about small and efficient programs of the old days but you cannot really compare the feature list of DPaint and Photoshop, the latter offers literally thousand times more features than the former so of course it is going to be bigger.
I think you forgot Java on the Android platform, which is the biggest out there in total number of users and applications.

Technically, when I think of bloat it is the number of instructions (bytes) of code the CPU (or GPU) has to process in order to execute the software, this includes any libraries used. If the only reason your code works OK without optimization is because Moore's law has been beneficial during the past decades by producing sufficient hardware, then this means your code efficiency has decreased by the same factor.
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Old 06 July 2016, 21:42   #127
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Thanks.




Thanks. I can probably softkick using the 'acatune -maprom <romfile>' command for the accelerator, never tried though.

Are these the nightly builds you refer to?

http://aros.sourceforge.net/nightly1.php
aha, i think it should be possible for an aca to handle a rom image of 1mb, however i dont know what format should be chosen, aros.elf or aros.hunk. (gz). i guess toni has done it, he might share with us how to proceed.

the location you pointed to is correct. you can softkick aros and use the content of boot iso (as is) copied to your mass storage partition. later on you can copy the content of contributions over your aros partition to check them out. tell me how far you get. ill be happy to be of assistance.

out of curiosity, what aca model, what cpu do you have? im not familiar with those. it would be good to have more than 8mb fast.

edit: bare in mind that aros doesnt boot in an instant as usual for the genuine kickstart. a1200 should work dependable, as i said. just wait a little, depending on your cpu speed. in case of problems serial debug can be caught. to speed up the native display decoration can be disabled and so on. but thats further matter,

Last edited by wawa; 06 July 2016 at 21:52.
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Old 06 July 2016, 22:29   #128
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Originally Posted by Ratteler View Post
Frankly, because I've never heard of Lua until just now.
It's not exactly unknown.

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Originally Posted by Ratteler View Post
There is a fundamental divide in the entire Retro community. A Luddite movement who thinks anything but a 1.3 KS with a floppy drive is kind of sin, and those of us who want a neo-nostalgia.
I don't think I'm part of either of those camps. I'm not interested in KS1.3 and floppies, and neither am I nostalgic.

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The fact is, the only way worth doing anything NEW for the Amiga, is the Neo-nostalgia path.
Nonsense. Writing software for actual Amiga computers isn't wasted effort.

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Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
The problem is when people from one side of the fence call others Luddite as if they had access to an objective truth about what the proper use of an Amiga should be.
Indeed. The only proper use of an Amiga is to do what ever you want with it.

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Originally Posted by Ratteler View Post
The Amiga will never be relevant again unless it changes hands and gets a massive overhaul that most of the community will disapprove of because it will then resemble a PC/Mac anyway.
The Amiga will never be relevant again, regardless of what happens. The sooner people realize this, the better.
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Old 06 July 2016, 22:52   #129
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aha, i think it should be possible for an aca to handle a rom image of 1mb, however i dont know what format should be chosen, aros.elf or aros.hunk. (gz). i guess toni has done it, he might share with us how to proceed.

the location you pointed to is correct. you can softkick aros and use the content of boot iso (as is) copied to your mass storage partition. later on you can copy the content of contributions over your aros partition to check them out. tell me how far you get. ill be happy to be of assistance.

out of curiosity, what aca model, what cpu do you have? im not familiar with those. it would be good to have more than 8mb fast.

edit: bare in mind that aros doesnt boot in an instant as usual for the genuine kickstart. a1200 should work dependable, as i said. just wait a little, depending on your cpu speed. in case of problems serial debug can be caught. to speed up the native display decoration can be disabled and so on. but thats further matter,
Thanks again. I have A1200 with ACA-1232, 68030 (with MMU) @ 33Mhz and 128mb fast ram (more details in my sig).
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Old 06 July 2016, 23:09   #130
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Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
Amiblitz was formly Blitz Basic, some devs got the permission to develop on it, they reassembled it (the original sources were lost) and improved it. It is not bad, includes editor, fast compiler and a number of includes so you can do pretty much with it. One difference to Amos is that Blitz Basic always supported AGA, there is one AGA-extension for Amos too (also preinstalled in amos pro in aros vision) but I have only made some short tests to see if the extension works (loaded 256 colors IFF picture and showed it). There were a number of languages and dialects in that times, mostly based on Pascal. Of course mostly used and supported (next to amiga-E) was C/C++.

the list of languages that are integrated and preinstalled in aros vision:
http://documentation.aros-platform.d...developer.html
Lost? Sure?

https://github.com/nitrologic/blitz2

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Old 06 July 2016, 23:17   #131
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The Amiga will never be relevant again, regardless of what happens. The sooner people realize this, the better.
This is indeed what I meant. I used the hypothetical situation of an ownership change to show that this wouldn't save the Amiga anyway (whatever "the Amiga" is).

Not relevant does not mean, not worth coding for.

Also, I'm not a Rat-teller but a ReadOnly-Cat.
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Old 06 July 2016, 23:19   #132
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Also, I'm not a Rat-teller but a ReadOnly-Cat.
Got the copy paste wrong, sorry about that
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Old 06 July 2016, 23:52   #133
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Thanks again. I have A1200 with ACA-1232, 68030 (with MMU) @ 33Mhz and 128mb fast ram (more details in my sig).
at least there is enough memory, even if it wont exactly be fast with wanderer. my recommendation is to include setpatch at the beginning of the s-s, and comment out the whole decoration section. of course it needs to be done with an amiga or linux editor. furthermore i would then use screenmode to set hires lace with only few colors for workbench to conserve chipram and speed. you may well need that resolution with aros. it wont hurt so much even with 1081, but if you have a lcd tv or scandoubler the flicker will not cause any problems.

also you can load peter k's icon library with loadmodule at the beginning of s-s instead of the genuine aros rom one. it makes the things look slightly different but may gain some speed.

if you decide to look at contribs, you may also check out scalos as desktop, even though id disable all the textures, skins and backdrops it brings as default. also you can check out dopus magellan as option.
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Old 07 July 2016, 00:40   #134
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I currently work on a game where the landscape is a patch of around 400km square of terrain. If anyone here can find a way for this to fit under 64 MB just for the heightmap you guys are most welcome but I won't be holding my breath.
As you say absolutely nothing about the complexity or detail level of the terrain that would be real easy ;-)
I can probably do it in 64 bytes then ;-)
With 64 kilobytes it might even look "almost interesting" ;-)
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Old 07 July 2016, 01:52   #135
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Indeed. The only proper use of an Amiga is to do what ever you want with it.

The Amiga will never be relevant again, regardless of what happens. The sooner people realize this, the better.
I think this sums up the situation perfectly. The Amiga is not only irrelevant, it's a dead platform. It's a curiosity for a tiny number of hobbyists.

That doesn't mean that we can't have fun with our hobby.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but almost no-one is actually releasing any new Amiga software for any configuration. A small number of people talk about writing software. A handful of people seem to be writing software, and a very small subset actually release new stuff. That's the definition of a dead platform.

I haven't seen anyone even talking about writing vampire specific stuff, but I might be missing something ?
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Old 07 July 2016, 02:17   #136
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...

I haven't seen anyone even talking about writing vampire specific stuff, but I might be missing something ?
An improved and updated compiler is needed, right now, nothing compiles Vampire optimized code.

In any case, I think most people have the Amiga as a hobby/nostalgia thing only. Very few do actual work on it and very few expect new, improved software that would actually cause you to start doing "real" work on it.
But then again, ppl do a lot of things in life that serves no meaningful purpose other than to the person doing it but can still be enjoyable, so why the hell not, right? ;-)
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Old 07 July 2016, 03:23   #137
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I think this sums up the situation perfectly. The Amiga is not only irrelevant, it's a dead platform. It's a curiosity for a tiny number of hobbyists.

That doesn't mean that we can't have fun with our hobby.
We sure as hell should!
Moreover, the more fun we have, the more non-Amiga kittens we can attract to the platform so they can take the relay when we are all dead and buried.

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Please correct me if I am wrong, but almost no-one is actually releasing any new Amiga software for any configuration. A small number of people talk about writing software. A handful of people seem to be writing software, and a very small subset actually release new stuff. That's the definition of a dead platform.
Well, you can put me in the "only verbally active" category so far but once I get up to speed I should be able to release stuff with some regularity. Hopefully this should inspire others to continue (as the current wave did inspire me).
But as I keep repeating, a commercial market would help to seed more developments as this allows developers to take a bit of time off work to spend on their passion.
And in this perspective I am curious to hear about how Tales of Gorluth and Tank Fury are faring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpine9000;1100142I
haven't seen anyone even talking about writing vampire specific stuff, but I might be missing something ?
I would think that there will be some software released once enough boards have reached actual humans but for now the supply chain seems to have a fairly low output so this will probably take some time.

This said, I see no reason for the Vampire market to work better than the 060/PPC one in the long term. Good software emerges naturally when the user base is large enough and for productivity software I doubt it will ever be large enough. As usual, ports of games will arrive but I am not so sure that they will have anything Amiga specific to show. Will we see original Vampire games relatively as impressive as SOTB was (graphically, I mean) or will there be only ports of existing stuff?

Anyway this is just my impression and I am no oracle so wait and see and I wish them happiness anyway.
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Old 07 July 2016, 04:32   #138
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We sure as hell should!
Well, you can put me in the "only verbally active" category so far but once I get up to speed I should be able to release stuff with some regularity. Hopefully this should inspire others to continue (as the current wave did inspire me).
But as I keep repeating, a commercial market would help to seed more developments as this allows developers to take a bit of time off work to spend on their passion.
And in this perspective I am curious to hear about how Tales of Gorluth and Tank Fury are faring.



I would think that there will be some software released once enough boards have reached actual humans but for now the supply chain seems to have a fairly low output so this will probably take some time.

This said, I see no reason for the Vampire market to work better than the 060/PPC one in the long term. Good software emerges naturally when the user base is large enough and for productivity software I doubt it will ever be large enough. As usual, ports of games will arrive but I am not so sure that they will have anything Amiga specific to show. Will we see original Vampire games relatively as impressive as SOTB was (graphically, I mean) or will there be only ports of existing stuff?

Anyway this is just my impression and I am no oracle so wait and see and I wish them happiness anyway.
There is zero chance the Amiga software market will ever be "commercial" again. That is in the sense that you could recover the cost of developing something significant.

Tanks Fury on aminet has around 500 downloads per version. If 100% of those were sales and you made $10 pure profit on each download it would be $5000, split between a programmer, artist, musician etc. In reality I would guess that Tanks Fury would have struggled to reach $1000 in sales. I would say they released the physical version for the love, not the money.
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Old 07 July 2016, 12:55   #139
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"commercial" in todays sense are either smartphones (iPhone and Android) or game consoles or classic desktops (Mac, Windows and to some degree Linux). All these platforms are counted in millions and all these platforms are supported by lots of game development software (if we look at games). Specfic amiga applications are even more unpropable in my view because of both tiny user base and developer base. Often amiga applications were developed by students but todays students certainly will not develop for amiga and the user base (at that time) was still in the millions. Now we count in thousands. So better people forget all the unrealistic dreaming.
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Old 07 July 2016, 15:32   #140
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There is zero chance the Amiga software market will ever be "commercial" again. That is in the sense that you could recover the cost of developing something significant.
It depends on what one's costs are.

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Tanks Fury on aminet has around 500 downloads per version. If 100% of those were sales and you made $10 pure profit on each download it would be $5000, split between a programmer, artist, musician etc. In reality I would guess that Tanks Fury would have struggled to reach $1000 in sales. I would say they released the physical version for the love, not the money.
Then again, one has to take into account that 1) it is a fairly simple game and 2) it requires a 020 to run, so it will not be as attractive as if, say, Lotus II was released for the first time today. Also, whether Aminet downloads are fully representative can be debated.

Also 5000$ would be a reasonable sum for a one person operation if they can spend say around one month for it. This would start to approach actual game industry wages. Even spread over two months it would still retain some attractiveness. (Clearly expenses, taxes, etc, must be subtracted as well, we are conveniently omitting them now.)

It might be difficult but I do not think it is as impossible as most think.
It is certainly more realistic than to think people will suddenly start developing productivity software.
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