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Old 04 July 2016, 16:04   #101
OlafSch
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as explanation... to establish a new OS as a new standard for developers on amiga that is free and open was my main motivation for my distribution, I wrongly assumed that this would convince everyone and motivate more people to support it, I was wrong there and understand it now. So for me it is now just a hobby where I do domething when I have both time and motivation and I lack both at the moment.
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Old 04 July 2016, 16:10   #102
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Aros 68k will come into its own once Vampire is readily available I think. I will most certainly be installing it on at least one of my Amiga's, probably the A2000 once it has a vampire.
I do not think that anymore... I thought it would expecially after the vampire / apollo devs said it would be their main platform for new development. But there was a partly hateful reaction by parts of the community, people want their 3.X with their beloved patches, then it will never run as fast on 68k as 3.X did or does (different heritage) and from what I read I think Gunnar is still preferring 3.X, Aros would be plan B so to say because you get it free of charge and developers work on it for free. At the same time he is still looking at 3.X. That is no convincing concept (at least for me) so I am not involved there anymore. We will see what future will bring.
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Old 04 July 2016, 16:13   #103
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There is part of the problem, although it's not your fault.
People won't move on to something else because (especially) in the Amiga world, that something else has a tendency to fade away and no longer be supported.
Better the devil you know so to speak.
I feel a shift coming though with the Vampire, the Amiga will be the most capable and the fastest it has ever been, it should renew interest in various ways.
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Old 04 July 2016, 16:20   #104
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There is part of the problem, although it's not your fault.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
People won't move on to something else because (especially) in the Amiga world, that something else has a tendency to fade away and no longer be supported.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
Better the devil you know so to speak.&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
I feel a shift coming though with the Vampire, the Amiga will be the most capable and the fastest it has ever been, it should renew interest in various ways.
&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
&amp;amp;lt;br /&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
I do not know if it is just fear something will be no longer supported. In the 68k time (up to 1998) you got plenty of patches and clever developers squeezed every cycle out of the old processors. You can have everything, a simple workbench or something eye-candy. People developed their taste, have set up their specific configuration depending on their tastes. On a new OS with different roms the old patches mostly (with exceptions) do not work anymore, also it is bloated for the purists because it includes many features the old workbench never supported. For the eye candy people it is perhaps not bloated enough I guess and you cannot get everything running people are used to in their 3.X environments.
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Old 04 July 2016, 16:41   #105
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I do not know if it is just fear something will be no longer supported. In the 68k time (up to 1998) you got plenty of patches and clever developers squeezed every cycle out of the old processors. You can have everything, a simple workbench or something eye-candy. People developed their taste, have set up their specific configuration depending on their tastes. On a new OS with different roms the old patches mostly (with exceptions) do not work anymore, also it is "bloated" for the purists because it includes many features the old workbench never supported. For the "eye candy" people it is perhaps not bloated enough I guess...
The trick is I think, not to lose heart. I can understand it must be hard after you put so much work, sweat and tears into it, but there IS folk out there that DO appreciate it.
I can't understand the mindset of some in the Amiga community either, you're not on your own there. They seem to want everything for nothing just so they can moan about it half of the time, the rest of the time they just seem to make comments that bring dissent.
As for renewed interest, I am one of them. I have had a lot more free time this last few month since I had to stop work, and have been using my Amiga's more.
What I know about coding is limited to very simple and short Basic programs on the Atari 800XL and ZX Spectrum back in the 1980's, but I intend to try and learn now.
A few month ago I purchased a boxed Easy Amos and will start with that, if I get anywhere I will move to Amos Pro and then Blitz Basic and so-on. I have the interest, but like you not much motivation. Who knows? This time next year I may need Aros 68k to code on!
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Old 04 July 2016, 16:52   #106
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@ptyerman&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
Sounds good :-)&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
Amos Pro is not that bad (lots of extensions) my main problem is that it is just supporting amiga formats (propably motivation for others ) for graphics, sound and so and BTW I am no graphician or music specialist so it is limiting my chances there. Amiblitz (the new version) is offering a lot of too, there is also Free Pascal now, Hollywood, Amiga-E with the best developer support, all are in my distribution except Hollywood. If you are interested in developing on amiga you have plenty of options, just that it is very different, much more source-orientated and mostly no IDE support people are comforted to like class libraries, debugger and so on. Back in the 90s so to say <img src="images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg" />
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Old 04 July 2016, 16:58   #107
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I bought a load of Amiga stuff of a friend a couple of year ago and there is a Amiga-E manual in there, I haven't seen any disks for it though, but that's not really a problem, I will have a read through it at some point.
Thanks for the heads up on Amiblitz, I didn't know there was a new version, I will look it up now.
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Old 04 July 2016, 17:08   #108
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I bought a load of Amiga stuff of a friend a couple of year ago and there is a Amiga-E manual in there, I haven't seen any disks for it though, but that's not really a problem, I will have a read through it at some point.
Thanks for the heads up on Amiblitz, I didn't know there was a new version, I will look it up now.
Amiblitz was formly Blitz Basic, some devs got the permission to develop on it, they reassembled it (the original sources were lost) and improved it. It is not bad, includes editor, fast compiler and a number of includes so you can do pretty much with it. One difference to Amos is that Blitz Basic always supported AGA, there is one AGA-extension for Amos too (also preinstalled in amos pro in aros vision) but I have only made some short tests to see if the extension works (loaded 256 colors IFF picture and showed it). There were a number of languages and dialects in that times, mostly based on Pascal. Of course mostly used and supported (next to amiga-E) was C/C++.

the list of languages that are integrated and preinstalled in aros vision:
http://documentation.aros-platform.de/html/developer.html
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Old 04 July 2016, 17:23   #109
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Just downloaded Amiblitz 3.6.1 on Sourceforge. Didn't know it was open source now, shows how out of touch I am with programming languages.
I just read in a forum post that it's AGA only and requires a FPU to run, whereas Blitz 2 didn't.
Not a problem as my A1200 has a FPU, and there is always WinUAE.
I will give all this a look through and dig up some tips and help resources to read.
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Old 04 July 2016, 19:03   #110
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All this AmiBlitz talk reminds me of something else we need on 68k Macs.
PYTHON!!!!
Python is THE defacto language for modern development. I don't think you can do Blender3D now without Python.
So yeah. 68K Python. It might be MORE important than anything else I listed because DEVELOPERS... AND the good news is, with all the RPi type devices coming out of the wood work, there is an INDUSTRY of development to make Python run on devices with *ahem* challenging resource limitations.
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Old 04 July 2016, 19:15   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
do you speak of amiga community? :-)
I was dreaming of a "non-commercial" world there for a bit as my mind wandered, and was thinking of EAB, but the whole Amiga community? Why not, it's high time to join all those different camps, the more the merrier.

Quote:
one of the problem is that developers often get no reward (be it donations or simply feedback) and then give up. I do not want to talk down others who are happy I only explain why Matthew (propably) made his comment. We should see the situation how it is. I am personally at the moment have different personal trouble (real life) and I have enough to do and to learn in normal world running boring development environments on boring bloated OS and am not unhappy with it. I have not much time at the moment but that might change somewhen. My Aros distribution is on hold at the moment, I understand that people prefer the old original Amiga OS with lots of patches to it and I am fine with that. I just lack (next to time) motivation to do something with it.
I feel a bit like an idiot, was not aware you worked on an Aros dist, another project I missed. After searching around this URL seems relevant (assuming it is correct):

http://www.aros-platform.de/

Over the years I have read news about Aros now and then, but always saved it for the day when I want to install something similar to AmigaOS on x86. Was unaware until now that there is a 68k version. Checking the website now.

EDIT:

I think "Aros Vision PAL" is the one to try on my A1200 (details in sig). I have a few questions:

1) Are there any "ready to use" image dumps I can just 'dd' onto an empty CF card?
2) Can I boot it with 3.1 ROMs?
3) What file systems are supported?

Last edited by modrobert; 04 July 2016 at 19:59.
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Old 05 July 2016, 13:52   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modrobert View Post
I think "Aros Vision PAL" is the one to try on my A1200 (details in sig). I have a few questions:

1) Are there any "ready to use" image dumps I can just 'dd' onto an empty CF card?
2) Can I boot it with 3.1 ROMs?
3) What file systems are supported?
1) I don't know of any.
2) You can boot with 1.x to 3.1 ROMs since it just loads its own custom ROM images into RAM and reboots into them.
3) SFS, FFS, OFS.
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Old 05 July 2016, 13:57   #113
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Python is THE defacto language for modern development.
Yuk, Python Why not Lua?
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Old 05 July 2016, 16:45   #114
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So yeah. 68K Python.
http://www.monkeyhouse.eclipse.co.uk/amiga/python/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratteler
It might be MORE important than anything else I listed because DEVELOPERS... AND the good news is, with all the RPi type devices coming out of the wood work, there is an INDUSTRY of development to make Python run on devices with *ahem* challenging resource limitations.
The Raspberry Pi is only limited on resources if you're the kind of developer who shouldn't even be let close to a computer, let alone an Amiga.

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Yuk, Python Why not Lua?
Hollywood is basically Lua.
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Old 05 July 2016, 17:03   #115
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Hollywood is basically Lua.
Lua isn't a big deal anyway, you can just compile it with SASC 6.58.
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Old 05 July 2016, 17:41   #116
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It is really sad how much the software world has changed in 20 years. I mean, you had games like Frontier on the Amiga that included a WHOLE galaxy and fitted on a single 880k floppy disk, and now you have stuff like Elite 4 (which is sh*t in my opinion) that is multiples of Gigabytes in size and half the gameplay. It stinks the way that computers and software have changed.
Opinions aside, do you really expect developers to optimise games like ED to run off a floppy disk? I'd be very surprised if you could find a single texture in the entire game that you could fit on a floppy disk. In an age where people have 4K displays and VR headsets, they don't want non-textured, 320x200 pixel games, which were adequate at the time but looked extremely dated even 15 years ago. Anyway, you'll find that the executable code for ED isn't all that big - the overwhelming majority of the space taken up is by assets. The galaxy generation code itself probably still fits on a floppy disk, after all it's just a matter of some procedural generation.

Quote:
Just downloaded Amiblitz 3.6.1 on Sourceforge. Didn't know it was open source now, shows how out of touch I am with programming languages.
I just read in a forum post that it's AGA only and requires a FPU to run, whereas Blitz 2 didn't.
It doesn't require AGA, it just needs a reasonable-sized screenmode as the editor has grown since the Blitz 2.1 days. I'd say 640x512 as a minimum, but I mostly run it on a graphics card at 1920x1200 these days, which is far more comfortable. FPU as a requirement is unfortunate I guess, but if you're looking to develop on such a low-end machine that it doesn't have an FPU, then maybe Blitz 2.1 is a better bet. The Ultimate Blitz CD can be found on archive.org, and a fixed install script can be downloaded from here. This gives you the most up-to-date Blitz 2.1 setup you can get without the extra requirements of AmiBlitz, though also without the benefits of the many updates that have been made in the meantime.

Quote:
Not a problem as my A1200 has a FPU, and there is always WinUAE.
I will give all this a look through and dig up some tips and help resources to read.
The first thing I would recommend is that you download a snapshot from Sourceforge, there are some changes since 3.6.1 that are worth getting, a few bug fixes and so on.

AmigaCoding.com has some useful information and simple guides on programming with Blitz 2 and AmiBlitz, so it might be useful for starting out with.

Last edited by Daedalus; 05 July 2016 at 17:54. Reason: Added Blitz info.
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Old 05 July 2016, 18:46   #117
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Your there again aren't you? Elite Dangerous on floppy disk? WTF, I don't recall anyone saying that, I know I didn't. Are you for real or what?
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Old 05 July 2016, 18:59   #118
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Your there again aren't you?
Ummm... What? Yes, I'm here. I did post.

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Elite Dangerous on floppy disk? WTF, I don't recall anyone saying that, I know I didn't. Are you for real or what?
From your earlier post:
Quote:
It is really sad how much the software world has changed in 20 years. I mean, you had games like Frontier on the Amiga that included a WHOLE galaxy and fitted on a single 880k floppy disk, and now you have stuff like Elite 4 (which is sh*t in my opinion) that is multiples of Gigabytes in size and half the gameplay. It stinks the way that computers and software have changed.
It sounds like you're lamenting that games like ED don't fit on a floppy disk any more. If that's not what you mean then you have my profuse apologies (you can also have them for my being here since that appears to have somehow upset you). I'm just pointing out that the massive difference in size that you don't like does have some substantial benefits.
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Old 05 July 2016, 19:00   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modrobert
I think "Aros Vision PAL" is the one to try on my A1200 (details in sig). I have a few questions:

1) Are there any "ready to use" image dumps I can just 'dd' onto an empty CF card?
2) Can I boot it with 3.1 ROMs?
3) What file systems are supported?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
1) I don't know of any.
2) You can boot with 1.x to 3.1 ROMs since it just loads its own custom ROM images into RAM and reboots into them.
3) SFS, FFS, OFS.
1.almost. 68k nightly is isch an iso, but it needs few adjustments before it will boot on your 1200. good news a1200 ide is well supported by aros, so after that it will boot dependably. you can use aros vision too, but it is a bit, lets say, "bloated" in comparison to a nightly that consists basically of 20mb.

2. you can boot (softkick) from aros from an amiga kickstart, when you add an appropriate command on the beginning of your startup sequence. im not sure if it is present in aros vision, outta the box, certainly not in the nightly.

3. ..pfs3, which is one id choose.
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Old 05 July 2016, 22:01   #120
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Originally Posted by ptyerman View Post
It is really sad how much the software world has changed in 20 years. I mean, you had games like Frontier on the Amiga that included a WHOLE galaxy and fitted on a single 880k floppy disk, and now you have stuff like Elite 4 (which is sh*t in my opinion) that is multiples of Gigabytes in size and half the gameplay. It stinks the way that computers and software have changed.
What's sad is when games are bug fests at release and have to receive a million patches. That games are big these days isn't sad, releasing shitty games is sad, has always been sad and will always be sad. The fact that games games can be gigabytes in size is fantastic, but it would be nice to see them do something else with that space than just add more gfx/snd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
My Aros distribution is on hold at the moment, I understand that people prefer the old original Amiga OS with lots of patches to it and I am fine with that. I just lack (next to time) motivation to do something with it.
The problem is speed and compatibility. If Aros was at least as fast as AOS3, and ran the same software, then it would be a different story. Of course, that's not so easily achieved.
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