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Old 30 June 2016, 14:46   #41
idrougge
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Have fun getting pthreads etc running on AmigaOS....
Why would you need pthreds? AFAIK Git is a program that checks files for changes, computes hashes and creates a config file.
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Old 30 June 2016, 14:58   #42
Marlon_
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A unified package manager platform for AOS/AROS would be great. Something like apt for Debian.
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Old 30 June 2016, 15:41   #43
Thorham
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Pure user software doesn't have to. But system tools have.
Sure, but can't the OS just supply the needed data? Give some examples of when not having access to system structures is a problem.

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Who does that memory belong to ?
Two communicating tasks simply have their own message buffers, they don't share a single buffer.

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For the others it's not visible. If you have full memory protection (paged) then even the address is wrong (may map anywhere in your process). And there are eventual pointers in the message itself.
All very true, but remember that the memory protection has to be optional, and that it should be possible to turn it on and off at will. You can't have each program have it's own address space like this.

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I don't use WAV because i don't want to waste disk space.
I rather have low CPU usage to be honest.

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Btw AIFF is more suited for the Amiga (no little endian to convert).
Not relevant if you use calibration. Just setup a calibration table for little endian samples.

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Anyway you can't do that for video.
AAC isn't video Also, why not just use your peecee for video?

Last edited by Thorham; 30 June 2016 at 15:46.
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Old 30 June 2016, 16:13   #44
meynaf
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I wish assemblers could do this
It's not their job. You have to write some code that does it for you. Just put debug checks everywhere.


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Sure, but can't the OS just supply the needed data? Give some examples of when not having access to system structures is a problem.
That's for cases the OS doesn't plan anything.
Do "modern" OSes allow you to walk their task lists ? Their interrupt lists ? Their library lists ?
Maybe they do, but if they miss something - it then becomes impossible while on AOS it's still doable.


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Two communicating tasks simply have their own message buffers, they don't share a single buffer.
If they don't share any buffer then they can't communicate. Both have to access the same memory area.


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All very true, but remember that the memory protection has to be optional, and that it should be possible to turn it on and off at will. You can't have each program have it's own address space like this.
This implies some programs won't work with memory protection turned on - because the relevant logic to make them work in that case is simply not there.


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I rather have low CPU usage to be honest.
No big deal for me, as long as there is enough. High cpu usage is temporary, high disk space usage is permanent - not to mention new files can be played directly.


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Not relevant if you use calibration. Just setup a calibration table for little endian samples.
Not an easy thing to do. Calibration code isn't exactly straightforward.
Besides, it only goes one way (= not when you write samples to disk) and for the special case when you don't have to downsample.


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AAC isn't video Also, why not just use your peecee for video?
'Course AAC isn't video (even though it's often embedded in it) but the point is that you can't save your video as raw data before playing it.
I could have said as well : why not just use your peecee for audio ?
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Old 30 June 2016, 16:34   #45
idrougge
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I could have said as well : why not just use your peecee for audio ?
Or, to get back on topic, why not use your pc as a transcoder? That's common for far more powerful hardware than the Amiga. All we need is a suitable client.
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Old 30 June 2016, 17:06   #46
DrBong
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A new operating system that's NOT compatible with AmigaOS.
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You mean m68k BSD?
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No, I don't. I mean an OS that does what AOS does, only better and faster with optional memory protection.
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Do you remember QNX4? Posix compatible system with GUI and browser on one 3.5" floppy. This one was IMHO one of the best chances Amiga ever had and blow on software field.
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QNX is a lot slower than AOS.
How about BeOS then (or Haiku as the open source version is known now)?

If it isn't too heavy for 68K (perhaps a lite version if it is?), then there would be a reasonable foundation of software ready to use if someone managed an optimised port to Amiga. Also, it's probably one of the most clean Amiga-like operating systems that has been developed since AmigaOS.

@ExiE
Are you the guy who used to run Czech Amiga News?

Last edited by DrBong; 30 June 2016 at 17:17.
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Old 30 June 2016, 17:13   #47
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It's not their job. You have to write some code that does it for you. Just put debug checks everywhere.
I know, but it may be possible with a 68k VM with JIT. Don't know if it would be overly useful...

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
That's for cases the OS doesn't plan anything.
Do "modern" OSes allow you to walk their task lists ? Their interrupt lists ? Their library lists ?
Maybe they do, but if they miss something - it then becomes impossible while on AOS it's still doable.
Actually, I don't see a problem with allowing reading the lists. In fact, any actions that can't screw up the system should just be allowed.

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If they don't share any buffer then they can't communicate. Both have to access the same memory area.
I didn't explain that very well. They share each others message buffer, but they can only read message buffers that they receive pointers to. That way, tasks can't alter each others memory, but they can read it for memory blocks where that's relevant.

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This implies some programs won't work with memory protection turned on - because the relevant logic to make them work in that case is simply not there.
Such as?

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No big deal for me, as long as there is enough. High cpu usage is temporary
Yes, and while the CPU is almost maxed out you can't do much else with your machine. On my 68030 I can only playback mp3s in crappy quality, and the CPU is almost maxed out. What use is that?

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high disk space usage is permanent
I have a 500GB HD on my Amiga, not a problem.

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Not an easy thing to do. Calibration code isn't exactly straightforward.
Isn't it just reading a table?

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Besides, it only goes one way (= not when you write samples to disk) and for the special case when you don't have to downsample.
I just checked, and WAV supports big endian.

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I could have said as well : why not just use your peecee for audio ?
Fair enough.
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Old 30 June 2016, 17:14   #48
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How about BeOS then (or Haiku as the open source version is known now)?

If it isn't too heavy for 68K (perhaps a lite version if it is?), then there would be a reasonable foundation of software ready to use if someone managed an optimised port to Amiga. Also, it's probably one of the most clean Amiga-like operating systems that has been developed since AmigaOS.
That's worth taking a look at.
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Old 30 June 2016, 18:42   #49
meynaf
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I know, but it may be possible with a 68k VM with JIT. Don't know if it would be overly useful...
No it's not possible. As long as the memory belongs to your process, nothing will identify out-of-range accesses. So you can still happily overflow array bounds.


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Actually, I don't see a problem with allowing reading the lists. In fact, any actions that can't screw up the system should just be allowed.
For reading the lists you need to disable multitasking - else they can change while you read. Forget to reenable it and you screw up the system.


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I didn't explain that very well. They share each others message buffer, but they can only read message buffers that they receive pointers to. That way, tasks can't alter each others memory, but they can read it for memory blocks where that's relevant.
So everyone's read only for the other ?


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Such as?
You speak about optional memory protection, but it has nothing to do with the fact a program will work or not. If a program doesn't have the added overhead memory protection implies, then it won't work when it's active.


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Yes, and while the CPU is almost maxed out you can't do much else with your machine. On my 68030 I can only playback mp3s in crappy quality, and the CPU is almost maxed out. What use is that?
Switch to a better cpu
Anyway you can still code (= type text in an editor).


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I have a 500GB HD on my Amiga, not a problem.
Not everyone has that. I have a 15GB CF.


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Isn't it just reading a table?
I was speaking about the code that actually writes the table.


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I just checked, and WAV supports big endian.
Where did you check ?
All docs i've read say little endian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAV
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Old 30 June 2016, 20:28   #50
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Why would you need pthreds? AFAIK Git is a program that checks files for changes, computes hashes and creates a config file.
I know exactly what Git is.....

Theres loads reasons to use threads and can assume that you run on a multiprocessor machine where overlapping I/O requests improve throughput, you can just check the code yourself to see ;-)

And if you grep and you see loads of #ifdef NO_THREADS, please actually read the codepaths given there....
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Old 30 June 2016, 20:33   #51
Thorham
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No it's not possible. As long as the memory belongs to your process, nothing will identify out-of-range accesses. So you can still happily overflow array bounds.
You can just handle assembly language like a script language. The question is whether it's useful or not. Probably not

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For reading the lists you need to disable multitasking
That's very true. I find this kind of thing quite dirty, though.

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So everyone's read only for the other ?
In the message buffer case, yes. Don't see the problem with it. Tasks simply use their own buffer to replay to a message instead of reusing the received buffer.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
You speak about optional memory protection, but it has nothing to do with the fact a program will work or not. If a program doesn't have the added overhead memory protection implies, then it won't work when it's active.
But where does most of the overhead come from? I don't see how a simple memory protection scheme is going to generate much overhead except for the MMU, but I might be wrong.

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Switch to a better cpu
Well, I have a peecee...

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Anyway you can still code (= type text in an editor).
Unworkable. The whole system slows down when most of the CPU is in use. It's just not practical.

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Not everyone has that. I have a 15GB CF.
That's true, but when you're on a 68030, I don't see the usefulness of sacrificing sound quality, just so that you can almost grind the system to a halt.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
I was speaking about the code that actually writes the table.
Just count through all 16 bit combinations, endian convert them, look them up in the calibration table as if they're normal samples, and write them out to a new table. I don't see how that's very hard.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Where did you check ?
All docs i've read say little endian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAV
The Sox documentations says that. There are two formats. RIFF and RIFX. They're identical except for the endian and the identifier in the header.
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Old 30 June 2016, 20:51   #52
Samurai_Crow
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AIFF is big endian.
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Old 30 June 2016, 22:17   #53
meynaf
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You can just handle assembly language like a script language. The question is whether it's useful or not. Probably not
Ok. Let's say you've found the instruction move.l (a0)+,d0. Now how to determine it's valid or not ?
No, really, it's simply not possible.


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
But where does most of the overhead come from? I don't see how a simple memory protection scheme is going to generate much overhead except for the MMU, but I might be wrong.
How do you handle the memory lists ? Remember, for memory protection you have to know which areas belong to whom. Might be very funny in case of heavy memory fragmentation.


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Well, I have a peecee...
Oh yeah ? Didn't know


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Unworkable. The whole system slows down when most of the CPU is in use. It's just not practical.
I don't see any slow down when just typing.
Perhaps you're just using the wrong texteditor+soundplayer combination


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
That's true, but when you're on a 68030, I don't see the usefulness of sacrificing sound quality, just so that you can almost grind the system to a halt.
Aren't you a little bit exaggerating ?
90% cpu use isn't grinding to a halt.
And for many files quality remains acceptable.


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Just count through all 16 bit combinations, endian convert them, look them up in the calibration table as if they're normal samples, and write them out to a new table. I don't see how that's very hard.
Cool, another 128kb table to allocate

This will not bring you far. If you get a 44100hz wav to be played on a machine that's not in productivity mode, you're out. Better endian convert in all cases.


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
The Sox documentations says that. There are two formats. RIFF and RIFX. They're identical except for the endian and the identifier in the header.
Yea maybe. But 99.99% of existing wav files are little endian.
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Old 01 July 2016, 00:05   #54
idrougge
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Theres loads reasons to use threads and can assume that you run on a multiprocessor machine where overlapping I/O requests improve throughput, you can just check the code yourself to see ;-)

And if you grep and you see loads of #ifdef NO_THREADS, please actually read the codepaths given there....
No-one said they wanted a port of the official Git client.
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Old 01 July 2016, 00:43   #55
Thorham
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Ok. Let's say you've found the instruction move.l (a0)+,d0. Now how to determine it's valid or not ?
Just check against some bounds. Bounds can be checked by keeping track of memory allocations. With a special assembler, you could even track dcb.x and ds.x directives. You can check if custom chip registers are read or written. It won't be perfect, but you can certainly do more than just nothing at all.

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How do you handle the memory lists ? Remember, for memory protection you have to know which areas belong to whom.
The OS keeps track of that. Not exactly difficult.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Might be very funny in case of heavy memory fragmentation.
That probably won't be better than AOS: RESET There may be some possibilities, but I don't know if they're practical.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Perhaps you're just using the wrong texteditor+soundplayer combination
I use FrexxEd which is a heavyish editor, but I want a little more functionality than other text editors and have spent a lot of time overhauling the thing. FrexxEd ain't going nowhere

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
90% cpu use isn't grinding to a halt.
And for many files quality remains acceptable.
What?

~90% -> crappy mp3 at 22khz mono
~20% -> original quality wav/aiff at 28khz stereo (20% is a guess)

That's NOT a choice

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Cool, another 128kb table to allocate
I didn't say it was a good idea, although it's ten times better than 90% CPU usage But, it's not really necessary if you use a file with the right endian, of course, so it's not important.

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This will not bring you far. If you get a 44100hz wav to be played on a machine that's not in productivity mode, you're out. Better endian convert in all cases.
What does the sample rate have to do with endian conversion? Also, 44.1khz would have to be down sampled in real time, which is far worse. Better if the user just uses a properly down sampled 28khz file. Sounds better, and uses less CPU.

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Yea maybe. But 99.99% of existing wav files are little endian.
I make my own WAV files, so it's of no concern to me. A proper WAV codec has to be able to handle both anyway, and Samurai_Crow just gave AIFF as a little endian option. Just tried AIFF with Hippo, works fine.
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Old 01 July 2016, 08:52   #56
meynaf
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Just check against some bounds. Bounds can be checked by keeping track of memory allocations. With a special assembler, you could even track dcb.x and ds.x directives. You can check if custom chip registers are read or written. It won't be perfect, but you can certainly do more than just nothing at all.
And you will catch many false errors.


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
The OS keeps track of that. Not exactly difficult.
Well, everything is easy when you don't have to do it, right ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
What?

~90% -> crappy mp3 at 22khz mono
~20% -> original quality wav/aiff at 28khz stereo (20% is a guess)

That's NOT a choice
What ?

3Mb -> mp3 at 22khz mono that's preloaded in memory (and doesn't play that bad)
30Mb -> huge file that has to do permanent disk access while playing (making HD access noise on top of the music)

That IS a choice

Anyway, what about :
~66% -> 28khz stereo FLAC



Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
What does the sample rate have to do with endian conversion? Also, 44.1khz would have to be down sampled in real time, which is far worse. Better if the user just uses a properly down sampled 28khz file. Sounds better, and uses less CPU.
You can't down sample with the wrong endian, that's the point.
If i release a sound player and tell the users : oh, by the way, downsample your 44.1 prior to playing - NO GOOD.


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A proper WAV codec has to be able to handle both anyway,
Will you stop using Hippo if it doesn't ? Perhaps you have to try.
Me, i won't support anything without having real files using it. If Sox can really produce them (i.e. if it's not an internal, unused option), then i'd like to have a few (i won't install Sox or anything else just for this, m'kay).


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
and Samurai_Crow just gave AIFF as a little endian option.
He said AIFF is big endian. AIFF has no little endian option.
Only stupid thing with AIFF is the way it stores the replay frequency.


Btw. What software does 68k Amiga need ? A new sound-player that takes over what Delitracker did. And i'm working on it.
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Old 01 July 2016, 09:50   #57
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And you will catch many false errors.
Perhaps.

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Well, everything is easy when you don't have to do it, right ?
What's so hard about keeping track of which task allocated which memory? None of this is rocket science.

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doesn't play that bad
It sounds crappy to me

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
making HD access noise on top of the music
Can't hear it with my headphones

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
~66% -> 28khz stereo FLAC
That's a lot better.

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You can't down sample with the wrong endian, that's the point.
Yeah, I indeed missed that

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
If i release a sound player and tell the users : oh, by the way, downsample your 44.1 prior to playing - NO GOOD.
You don't have to, but I refuse to use real time down sampling because Sox sounds much better.

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Will you stop using Hippo if it doesn't ? Perhaps you have to try.
No, I won't It doesn't support RIFX, though.

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i won't install Sox or anything else just for this, m'kay
It's just a folder with some files, no need to install anything. Runs from the command line. If you're serious about writing that player, then I suggest that you use it, because it can produce more formats than WAV and AIFF. Can't hurt to take a look.

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He said AIFF is big endian. AIFF has no little endian option.
Yeah, that's what I meant to write, actually
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Old 01 July 2016, 10:30   #58
meynaf
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What's so hard about keeping track of which task allocated which memory? None of this is rocket science.
It becomes fun when you have tasks allocating many small memory chunks, that's all.


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It sounds crappy to me
MP3 always does, doesn't it ?


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Can't hear it with my headphones
Cruel guy. You don't even hear your HD grumbling about being abused


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
It's just a folder with some files, no need to install anything. Runs from the command line. If you're serious about writing that player, then I suggest that you use it, because it can produce more formats than WAV and AIFF. Can't hurt to take a look.
It can hurt, if i end up with thousands of nearly never used format variations (especially some that are poorly documented).
I would like to know if there are really RIFX WAVE files out there. Where's the point in supporting something nobody will ever use ?
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Old 01 July 2016, 14:23   #59
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I'm dreaming here, but I would love OpenOffice and Blender3D.
Gimp, Inkscape, and FreeCAD wouldn't hurt either.

If I had to choose just one, it would be Blender3D for Blender Game Engine compatibility.
If BGE games could be played on the Amigas, we would have a world of new games to choose from.
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Old 01 July 2016, 14:44   #60
Zetr0
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+1 for Blender3D

it would appear I am a sucker for any 3D really

If the Vampire / Apollo project has shown anything to the community at large, it would be that FPGA's will get faster and cheaper - in my exuberance of this I can unequivocally say that eventually all working Amiga's will have one. Maybe not to day or tomorrow, but most assuredly eventually.

So Raytraced and or Texture mapped 3D please, and then I want the Unity Engine if you still have some steam for that
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