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Old 29 June 2016, 18:16   #21
Thorham
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Originally Posted by matthey View Post
I agree that we need affordable standard hardware to solve the software problem not that anyone is listening to us.
It's because many people, myself included, are interested in Amiga as a retro platform. If we want much faster computers, then we just use our peecees. This of course doesn't stop better software from being written if you're willing to write it in asm.
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Old 29 June 2016, 19:13   #22
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It's because many people, myself included, are interested in Amiga as a retro platform. If we want much faster computers, then we just use our peecees. This of course doesn't stop better software from being written if you're willing to write it in asm.
I believe many more people than "many people" are interested in Amiga as a retro platform and would also like to do semi-modern web browsing, development and games on the same platform. It is possible to allow both which the FPGA devices are doing to a lesser extent of what is possible.
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Old 29 June 2016, 19:38   #23
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My vote is for a Git client.

That's something I'd actually use on the Amiga.
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Old 29 June 2016, 20:05   #24
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Well, I want memory protection all the time since I am not interested in one unknown program taking the whole machine down because of a stupid bad pointer while I am busy using it. And that includes my own programs because bugs and crashes will always exist. Also I do not want other programs to be able to spy on my memory. Memory protection forces programs to be clean and properly use proper APIs rather than pilfer around public OS structures and fuck things up for every other well behaved tasks.
But the problem is that sometimes accessing public structures is a necessity for the job we're going to do. Think about monitoring software or OS patches.

A new OS could give extra privileges to trusted software to overcome this, though.


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Keeping programs well behaved is not my job, it's the OS's. I have better things to do than dichotomic searches of crashing programs/drivers.
A program that crashes will crash, memory protection doesn't change this.
So you have to filter out bad software anyway.


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Programs don't have any business doing that in most cases.
Think twice. Intuition.library constantly sends messages to apps.


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Yes, it is. Just because the OS doesn't force you to do anything in particular, doesn't mean that you should mess around simply because you can. An OS without memory protection actually forces you to play nice, or your software ends up being crappy.
I second that. Being tolerant to errors indirectly raises the number of said errors.


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GCC 2.95.3 did a good job back in the day. Then came newer C standards, GCC bloat and deteriorating code generation quality. If compilers could generate good quality code, the hardware would not feel so underpowered. Compilers need affordable standard hardware to receive development. This gets us back to the chicken and the egg problem.
Even the best compiler in the world won't turn a messy program into a good one. And most of the software we don't have (good browser for example) are nothing but gruesome bloatwares.


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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
It's because many people, myself included, are interested in Amiga as a retro platform. If we want much faster computers, then we just use our peecees. This of course doesn't stop better software from being written if you're willing to write it in asm.
While asm can do wonders, in some cases the task is simply impossible.
So even though i would love writing an AAC decoder that does real time on 030, i know it won't happen. And i'm not talking about watching youtube videos.
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Old 29 June 2016, 21:19   #25
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A new operating system that's NOT compatible with AmigaOS.
You mean m68k BSD?
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Old 30 June 2016, 00:04   #26
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Originally Posted by matthey View Post
I believe many more people than "many people" are interested in Amiga as a retro platform and would also like to do semi-modern web browsing, development and games on the same platform.
Perhaps you're right, but I'm certainly not someone who likes to go for hardware solutions. Anything beyond 68060 (I prefer 68030), and things like graphics cards on the Amiga are just not my thing. Don't know why, I just don't care for it (not nostalgia related, although the reason isn't a rational one).

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But the problem is that sometimes accessing public structures is a necessity for the job we're going to do. Think about monitoring software or OS patches.
I'm sure that it's possible to come up with good solutions for that.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
A new OS could give extra privileges to trusted software to overcome this, though.
That's one way, but it would be better if it wasn't necessary for user software to mess with OS structures too much.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Think twice. Intuition.library constantly sends messages to apps.
I don't see how message passing using pointers is a problem.

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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Even the best compiler in the world won't turn a messy program into a good one. And most of the software we don't have (good browser for example) are nothing but gruesome bloatwares.
Indeed, and of course people will want to port those Firefox anyone? At the same time no one seems to have taken the time to write an optimized html+css engine in 68k asm. In the end all of this will just lead to the peecee situation, and Amiga doesn't need that.

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While asm can do wonders, in some cases the task is simply impossible. So even though i would love writing an AAC decoder that does real time on 030, i know it won't happen. And i'm not talking about watching youtube videos.
Yup, a CPU is only so fast. In the case of audio, why not just use WAV on the Amiga instead? Great quality, low overhead and actually leaves CPU time free for other things (even on a 50mhz 68030). I don't see the need for heavy real time audio decoders on 68k, to be honest.

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You mean m68k BSD?
No, I don't. I mean an OS that does what AOS does, only better and faster with optional memory protection.
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Old 30 June 2016, 02:43   #27
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I wrote a toy OS (not for Amiga obviously), it was fun. My target was an emulator that emulates a fake computer based on the SuperH SH-2 cpu (which has no mmu). This architecture is well supported by the current GNU toolchain as well as by the newlib C library which made it relatively easy to get unix software running on the OS. Before I got bored I got GCC running and the OS was able to recompile it's own kernel. The emulator had deep hooks into the OS so the emulator was able to do memory checking.

Doing an OS without starting with a well supported toolchain and C library would be an interesting challenge, that's for sure.
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Old 30 June 2016, 03:08   #28
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My vote is for a Git client.

That's something I'd actually use on the Amiga.
Seconded.
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Old 30 June 2016, 07:02   #29
meynaf
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Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
That's one way, but it would be better if it wasn't necessary for user software to mess with OS structures too much.
Pure user software doesn't have to. But system tools have.


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I don't see how message passing using pointers is a problem.
Who does that memory belong to ?
For the others it's not visible. If you have full memory protection (paged) then even the address is wrong (may map anywhere in your process). And there are eventual pointers in the message itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Yup, a CPU is only so fast. In the case of audio, why not just use WAV on the Amiga instead? Great quality, low overhead and actually leaves CPU time free for other things (even on a 50mhz 68030). I don't see the need for heavy real time audio decoders on 68k, to be honest.
I don't use WAV because i don't want to waste disk space. Btw AIFF is more suited for the Amiga (no little endian to convert).

Anyway you can't do that for video.
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Old 30 June 2016, 10:05   #30
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It can't work well with existing hardware simply because it'll necessarily be more bloat than regular AOS - or else you won't have the features you wish, like full memory protection. Things have a cost.
Not necessarily. Do you remember QNX4? Posix compatible system with GUI and browser on one 3.5" floppy. This one was IMHO one of the best chances Amiga ever had and blow on software field.

edit: 3,5" HD floppy and it was for PC (just to be clear)
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Old 30 June 2016, 10:09   #31
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Not necessarily. Do you remember QNX4? Posix compatible system with GUI and browser on one 3.5" floppy. This one was IMHO one of the best chances Amiga ever had and blow on software field.
QNX is a lot slower than AOS.
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Old 30 June 2016, 10:11   #32
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Modern SSH/SSL implementation.
A modern X11 server/client to go with that would be great as well!
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Old 30 June 2016, 10:55   #33
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Not necessarily. Do you remember QNX4? Posix compatible system with GUI and browser on one 3.5" floppy. This one was IMHO one of the best chances Amiga ever had and blow on software field.

edit: 3,5" HD floppy and it was for PC (just to be clear)
Blackberry murdered QNX with the Playbook.
Made Mehdi Ali look like Steve jobsí
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Old 30 June 2016, 11:14   #34
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My vote is for a Git client.

That's something I'd actually use on the Amiga.
Have fun getting pthreads etc running on AmigaOS....
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Old 30 June 2016, 11:31   #35
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Hmmmm

"what software does the 68k Amiga need?"

From this I can only assume a 68k Amiga program otherwise I would humbly suggest a good PC cross compiling environment or a PC version of Amiga Game Maker =)

So that aside, there are plenty of Drivers that the 68k moto could benefit from - allowing for more features in sound / graphics via PCI - sadly as much as I find this area fascinating - its quite dry for most accept the the slightly unhinged / die-hard - ironically I am sure I am part of that group - I will let you work out which

Out side of that one has to consider productivity software - sadly the stock 68k moto's are not really Web-Compatible - while one could develop software on a PC to intermediate and act as an off-load engine for web-processing - this is about 68k code on x86.

while yes there is a lot of little Linux features that would be quite tasty on the Amiga - I would humbly suggest a game creating software - make a series dedicated to a specific type i.e. APGC - Amiga Platform Game Creator or APGC - Amiga Polygon Game Creator - AFGC - Amiga Fighting Game Creator.

There is a great little PC software that allows you to create ZX Spectrum games from scratch and import graphics / sound and ASM - the name escapes me at the moment - since I am only on my first coffee of the day =)

Something in between Blitz and Amos - sadly while you could boil down code related objects to a given genre - this would still require some time / dedication - possibly a small group or team - but I see some pretty heavy weight coders already post in this thread - and that is clearly something they could do, i'd like to help out with the Polygon Game Creator .

Last edited by Zetr0; 30 June 2016 at 11:37.
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Old 30 June 2016, 11:36   #36
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Modern SSH/SSL implementation.
Yes! Even a barebone 'ssh' terminal implementation (protocol version 2) would give so many reasons to use the Amiga, and I love those reasons. Native port, compile using 'vbcc' or similar (as opposed to "geek gadgets" posix dependencies that just ends up in catch-22 or limbo).

BTW: Hats off to Leffmann for his excellent sha256 hashing tool, it blew my mind, assembler optimized (goosebumps guaranteed).

Last edited by modrobert; 30 June 2016 at 11:42.
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Old 30 June 2016, 12:07   #37
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The OS can give a receiving task read-only privileges for the received message buffer. If the receiving task wants to reply to the message, it uses it's own buffer, and sends that pointer over. The task that receives the reply then also has read-only privileges for the received buffer.
Yes, sounds like memory protection. Are you depending on other software respecting that read-only status, or are you looking to enforce it? Enforcing it costs performance, so you're already at a disadvantage performance-wise compared to Amiga OS. If you're expecting software to be well behaved and respect memory flags, then you're basically no different to Amiga OS right now.
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Old 30 June 2016, 14:32   #38
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Yes, sounds like memory protection. Are you depending on other software respecting that read-only status, or are you looking to enforce it? Enforcing it costs performance, so you're already at a disadvantage performance-wise compared to Amiga OS. If you're expecting software to be well behaved and respect memory flags, then you're basically no different to Amiga OS right now.
If the OS does it, it's memory protection. If the development system does it (as implemented in Oberon 2 or Mono) it's considered managed code. I favor the latter over the former (but more like Oberon 2 implementation where you can take off the "training wheels" or debug mode when you're ready for full performance).
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Old 30 June 2016, 14:41   #39
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Yes, sounds like memory protection. Are you depending on other software respecting that read-only status, or are you looking to enforce it?
The memory protection is optional for performance. When it's turned on, stuff like this will be enforced, when it's turned off, programs can do what ever they want. Programs should obviously be written with the memory protection in mind.
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Old 30 June 2016, 14:44   #40
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If the development system does it (as implemented in Oberon 2 or Mono) it's considered managed code.
I wish assemblers could do this
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