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Old 15 June 2016, 21:23   #21
Steve
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I'm the owner of his latest book - The Story of the Commodore 64 in Pixels. It's a good book for sure but I have to say I was really disappointed with the quality of the paper - very thin and not very opaque. Maybe its just me but I was hoping for a lot better quality like the nice paper used for the Commodore Amiga Visual Compendium book.

Looking forward to receiving my copy of the Bitmap Brothers: Universe in the near future and hopefully, eventually, the Commodore: Amiga Years book by Brian Bagnall.
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Old 15 June 2016, 23:05   #22
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Everyone trying to cash in on the retro-hype... But I don't mind, will sit nice next to the Amiga Visual Compendium, which is indeed veeerrrrry similar IMO.
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Old 16 June 2016, 17:00   #23
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Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
No, you're not alone.
Sounds like easy money to me. Can be done at home, and at no risk due to Kickstarter financing.
There is no such thing as no risk. If he miscalculated the costs, then he could just end up losing money.

He could get into legal trouble if he accidentally misused copyrighted images, etc. He could have agreed to an incomplete contract with the printer and end up losing the prints when that one goes bankrupt or accidentally destroys a batch of books and this was not insured. There is always a measure of risk to any physical project.

If you really think that this is easy, I would recommend you do it, this free money would be for you then.
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Old 16 June 2016, 21:14   #24
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Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
There is no such thing as no risk. If he miscalculated the costs, then he could just end up losing money.

He could get into legal trouble if he accidentally misused copyrighted images, etc. He could have agreed to an incomplete contract with the printer and end up losing the prints when that one goes bankrupt or accidentally destroys a batch of books and this was not insured. There is always a measure of risk to any physical project.

If you really think that this is easy, I would recommend you do it, this free money would be for you then.
The chap who created the 'Artcade' book ran into difficulties with printing etc, so no, it isn't an easy feat. I believe bitmapbooks are now publishing this...
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Old 17 June 2016, 01:51   #25
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Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
He could get into legal trouble if he accidentally misused copyrighted images, etc. He could have agreed to an incomplete contract with the printer and end up losing the prints when that one goes bankrupt or accidentally destroys a batch of books and this was not insured. There is always a measure of risk to any physical project.

If you really think that this is easy, I would recommend you do it, this free money would be for you then.
I would if my high moral standards didn't prevent me from asking impressionable people for money in advance in order to do what amounts to an illustrated children's book for nostalgic grownups.

Come on, the entire point of Kickstarter is to avoid risks. If you have a captive audience and still don't make a profit, you must be some kind of anti-entrepreneur.

Last edited by idrougge; 17 June 2016 at 02:31.
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Old 18 June 2016, 09:16   #26
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Anyway, going back to the topic, am I the only one who's a bit bored of these retrogaming pixel books that are all flash with lotsa blown-up screenshots, but ultimately have little substance?!
It must be you, because reading the Kickstarter would allow you to figure out that this book should have more than "a little substance":

From the Kickstarter description:
Quote:
Roger Kean, joint founder of Newsfield Publications who gave us Crash, Zzap! 64 and The Games Machine will be writing a feature on the history of the Amiga computer.
[...]
There will be a feature by ex-Retro Gamer editor Martyn Carroll on the move to AGA; a feature on the demo scene and an article on the best music the Paula chip produced on the machine.

We will be talking to those who created the application, such as Amos below.
[...]
And those who were involved in creating the games we played and loved. There will be over 30 musicians, programmers and artists (some listed below) telling the reader what it was like to work on the Amiga and talk a little bit about the games or applications they produced.
[...]
And we will explore the demo scene, talking to those that started up such groups as Anarchy and Scoopex.
[...]
We will have over 30 memoirs in the book. Those contributing to date (and the list will grow) are:
Archer Maclean, David Lowe, , Boys Without Brains, Jez San, Stoo cambridge, Mevlut Dinc, Andy Nuttal, Allister Brimble, Anthony Ball, David Mowbray, Dino Dini, Martin Edmondson, Steve Crow, Peter Johnson, Simon Butler, Tim Wright, Mark Hellewell (Anarchy demo group), Francis Lionet, Ash Hogg, Andrew Hewson, Jim Sachs, Roman Rath (Scoopex demo group), Barry Leitch
and more...
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Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
I would if my high moral standards didn't prevent me from asking impressionable people for money in advance in order to do what amounts to an illustrated children's book for nostalgic grownups.
Your high moral standards seem to prevent you from reading the Kickstarter descriptions in full as well (cf above).

Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
Come on, the entire point of Kickstarter is to avoid risks. If you have a captive audience and still don't make a profit, you must be some kind of anti-entrepreneur.
The entire point of Kickstarter has nothing to do with avoiding risk, this notion exists purely in your head and ignore basic entrepreneurial reality.

Kickstarter's point is to allow creators to reach their public directly, removing intermediaries does not remove any risks, on the contrary, risks are now borne by the creator when in the past they were taken by the investors/producers.

A fraction of the projects do actually never reach completion. So much for avoiding risk. Also most projects already start with funds of their own, given the very low sums obtained via backers in general, they have to. So if the projects tank, they generally lose a part of their shirt too.

Also, you are sorely mistaken if you think the audience of the projects is the sole public for them. Look at the number of backers -> they are ridiculously low compared to what is necessary to make most projects profitable.

Shenmue3, the most successful Kickstarter game campaign.
-> 69,320 backers:
It is a joke, totally unprofitable for a game of this ambition. The game will have to reach one or two orders of magnitude more players than that to be profitable.

-> 6,333,295 $:
A complete joke too, this barely covers the marketing budget for a modern title.
There is no way they can develop the game with this.

And that is the most successful campaign in gaming. Kickstarter is ... a kickstarting mechanism, not a guarantee of profitability. Once a campaign is funded, the work and effort just begins and nothing yet is guaranteed.

I wish people started having a better grasp of the reality of making business in this world. Kickstarter is not magic, it does not create valid business models for you, nor does it generate an audience of the desired size. A campaign is just an advance payment.
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Old 18 June 2016, 10:18   #27
DrBong
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Anyway, going back to the topic, am I the only one who's a bit bored of these retrogaming pixel books that are all flash with lotsa blown-up screenshots, but ultimately have little substance?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
It must be you, because reading the Kickstarter would allow you to figure out that this book should have more than "a little substance":
Being anal-retentive or unnecessarily caustic just makes you look silly at the end of the day, so please resist the urge to do that when responding to other people's questions. There seems to be a real rash of it going on lately from a few individuals here on EAB in a number of threads and it hasn't gone unnoticed.

The question I posed was a general one and it does seem like I'm not the only one who's bored of the pixel books, judging from a few of the responses that have been solicited. As for Kickstarter descriptions, they're worth about as much as the paper that they're written on (as it were)......absolutely nothing!

I've actually seen a handful of the Amiga/C64 pixel books first-hand and most have been quite disappointing in their own right (and doubly so when their Kickstarter descriptions have been taken into account, if that's how they've been funded). Can you honestly say the same? Please name the books and give some detail if that is the case.

Last edited by DrBong; 18 June 2016 at 18:02. Reason: Fixed some typos!
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Old 18 June 2016, 16:35   #28
idrougge
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Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
Your high moral standards seem to prevent you from reading the Kickstarter descriptions in full as well (cf above).
No need to read this specific description because the question wasn't specifically directed at this book, as you as an intelligent member of the community can see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat
The entire point of Kickstarter has nothing to do with avoiding risk, this notion exists purely in your head and ignore basic entrepreneurial reality.
Kickstarter's point is to allow creators to reach their public directly, removing intermediaries does not remove any risks, on the contrary, risks are now borne by the creator when in the past they were taken by the investors/producers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat
In the past, the creator bore the risk, or they found an investor that took on some of the risk for a sizable piece of the profit.
In the Kickstarter system, the investor doesn't take any of the profit, instead the thousands of investors give you a check to be cashed when you deliver your product. Any eventual profits are yours to keep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat
A fraction of the projects do actually never reach completion. So much for avoiding risk. Also most projects already start with funds of their own, given the very low sums obtained via backers in general, they have to. So if the projects tank, they generally lose a part of their shirt too.
One thing about Kickstarters is that there is no general Kickstarter. You have billion dollar companies kickstarting projects they could fund with the money they invest in coffee each month, you have hopeful christian rock bands who won't ever reach their goals, and you have people who find a niche ready to be exploited due to a combination of small direct investments and an audience consisting of childless IT professionals with cash to spend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat
Also, you are sorely mistaken if you think the audience of the projects is the sole public for them. Look at the number of backers -> they are ridiculously low compared to what is necessary to make most projects profitable.

Shenmue3, the most successful Kickstarter game campaign.
-> 69,320 backers:
It is a joke, totally unprofitable for a game of this ambition. The game will have to reach one or two orders of magnitude more players than that to be profitable.

-> 6,333,295 $:
A complete joke too, this barely covers the marketing budget for a modern title.
There is no way they can develop the game with this.
If the Shenmue company decided on a goal sum which doesn't cover their expenses, that's something they must handle. That's also a very extreme Kickstarter, far removed from "most projects" and far from the indie spirit once tied to Kickstarter. It's also as far removed from an already proven book project as you can come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat
And that is the most successful campaign in gaming. Kickstarter is ... a kickstarting mechanism, not a guarantee of profitability. Once a campaign is funded, the work and effort just begins and nothing yet is guaranteed.
YAAB (Yet another Amiga book) is already guaranteed profitability. The costs involved are small until you reach the printing stage, and since you already have the first run booked, you don't need to make a risk-filled estimate of how many copies to print or where to stock them until they're sold. One could just as well print money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat
I wish people started having a better grasp of the reality of making business in this world. Kickstarter is not magic, it does not create valid business models for you, nor does it generate an audience of the desired size. A campaign is just an advance payment.
And that's exactly the point. An advance payment with a minimum of prerequisites is a dream proposition for most businessmen.
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Old 18 June 2016, 17:26   #29
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Being anal-retentive or unnecessarily caustic just makes you look silly at the end of the day, so please resist the urge to do that when responding to other people's questions. There seems to be a real rash of it going on lately from a few individuals here on EAB in a number of threads and it hasn't gone unnoticed.
You are absolutely right that I didn't need to be so ironic and should have been better at keeping my usual kitten friendly tone. Thanks for the notice.
I usually do my best to stay humorous and helpful but I guess I am human and make mistakes too and more smileys and a better tone would have been more appropriate.

However, I would say that your tone is even more caustic than mine and borders on being an unhealthy generalization.
"Anal retentive"? I would never be that aggressive in a post.
"There seems to be a trend"? generalization is equally unnecessary and unhealthy.
"hasn't been unnoticed"? By whom? Do you represent more people than yourself?

Again, I apologize for the tone of my answer but you are also prompt to jump to overarching conclusions and I am sure we can both do better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
The question I posed was a general one and it does seem I'm not the only one judging from a few responses that have been solicited.
It was general but coming in a thread talking about a very specific instance.

If this general question was not targeting the very topic of the thread it would have helped a lot if you had written an explicit disclaimer and mentioned going off-topic.
I think I t was reasonable of me to assume your post was on topic.

Also, the fact that several people share the feeling says nothing about it having substance unless each one brings facts to the table. There was little evidence here presented to support the hypothesis of a trend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
As for Kickstarter descriptions, they're worth the paper they're written on (as it were)......absolutely nothing!
No they are not. Unless you are implying that overall there is zero accountability and massive fraud on Kickstarter.. There is fraud and deception but all available stats point to it being a very small fraction of the number of projects.

Choosing the negative side is perfectly arbitrary given that the vast majority of Kickstarter projects are successful and satisfy their audience (Kickstarter stats, available from them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
I've actually seen a handful of the Amiga/C64 pixel books first-hand and most have been quite disappointing in their own right (and doubly so when their Kickstarter descriptions have been taken into account, if that's how they've been funded). Can you honestly say the same? Please name the books and give some detail if that is the case.
You are a much pushy kitten Sir, trying to push your work onto me. Bringing evidence to the table is the job of the plaintiff.

List all the KS Amiga/C64 projects and compare their description and results methodically and tell us what the fraction of liars there is and which part of that feeling was actually subjective misunderstanding of what was proposed.

I have also wondered whether that trend was real so I would be interested in knowing the truth but I am too cautious (when I am not busy being too ironic!) to voice it publicly.

I never talked in the general case so I am not going to argue that case but impressions and feelings are very dangerous things because we are super prone to generalization whenever we notice even just two instances of something we do not like. Do the checks yourself, you will be surprised how unreliable our impressions are.

Anyway, thanks again for pointing out the unnecessarily harsh tone of my answer, and my apologies for the long winded and redundant answer.
I hope that this time it was more productive.
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Old 05 July 2016, 12:53   #30
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Looks like an awesome Amiga Kickstarter!
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Old 05 July 2016, 13:02   #31
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Isnt this going to be similar to the "amiga:visual compendium"?
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Old 05 July 2016, 13:05   #32
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I own several of the creators other books and I can verify that these are not 'picture books' in any way.

The Ocean & C64 books are much, much more in depth than some people in this thread give them credit for and contain full histories, interesting interviews and yes - pictures.

However, don't take my word for it, check his site here: https://fusionretrobooks.com/product...ixels-preorder. As you can see there his books are not collections of screenshots.

As such, I'm looking forward to his Amiga book as well
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Old 05 July 2016, 15:30   #33
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I own several of the creators other books and I can verify that these are not 'picture books' in any way.
They're doing themselves a major disservice in that case by associating themselves with these visual compendium books. You have to be prepared to delve into the finer details to see the wood from the trees, which most casual browsers won't have the patience for.
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Old 05 July 2016, 16:47   #34
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They're doing themselves a major disservice in that case by associating themselves with these visual compendium books. You have to be prepared to delve into the finer details to see the wood from the trees, which most casual browsers won't have the patience for.
Yeah, I get what you mean.

Personally I rather like the name (and he's done several books in the same series now so it kinda sticks I suppose), but I get why others might think it's just about pictures.

But for clarity: these books are kind of in between a 'pure historical book' and a 'visual compendium'. There are plenty of pictures, but also lots of text. I was actually surprised at the volume of text in the C64 version of the book, considering the name (which proves your point I guess).
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Old 16 July 2016, 02:20   #35
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I'm Chris, the author/owner of these books...

Take a look at this link for a looksie at the Flip Book of the C64 book - this will only be available for a little while, but will let you decide if you like the book (and may persuade you to get one - www.fusionretrobooks.com). The Amiga book will follow the same format.

Last edited by boyo; 13 August 2016 at 16:43.
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Old 16 July 2016, 15:02   #36
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I like the voiceover at the end of the video for the Amiga in Pixels Kickstarter, quote "The Amiga Never Dies".
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