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Old 26 May 2016, 14:32   #1
amigang
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old Amiga video should they be copyrighted?

old Amiga video should they be copyrighted?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php…
really want feed back from the community.

"So I recently had a copyright claim on my AmigaNG Youtube channel

[ Show youtube player ]

This was a very short little weird and fun vid of songfiy the launch of the Amiga, a bit of daft video and not too fussed if it gone.

However I would be upset if the Only Amiga Song ( [ Show youtube player ]) or Making of Amiga Boing Ball ( [ Show youtube player ]) videos would be claimed.

I feel this might be more likely to happen now that Amiga films have had a commercial success and value. Its ironic as I helped back both Amiga Years and Viva Amiga films.

I feel all the video do being out on the web is help promote and better inform people about how great the Amiga was back in its time, lets face it most people out in the real world have only a passing interest in Amiga or some fond memories and are unlikly to pay to watch an Amiga film, they might just watch it if it pops up for free or possible part of a subscription services but most are unlikly to watch it unless there a fan.

Keeping them copyrighted, locked up will mean only true Amiga fans who watch the above films or buy Amiga forever dvd edition will ever seen them which I feel is a shame, what happened to "So the world may know!" theme of Amiga world. its hard enough in this day in age to tell people and get the word out that Amiga is still around and that you can get an amiga experience for your PC, Mac and even phone if you wish.

Case in point is that particular video taken down, was called Songfiy the launch of Amiga, Songfiy is a popular Youtube channel that takes normal talking moments and then makes a song out of them with heavy use of auto tune. People who may have no interest in Amiga what so ever will be searching for daft videos like this (I dont know why, but thats how the internet seem to roll nowadays) they may of come across my video and thought what the hell is this? what the hell is an Amiga? What is going on? what a lame video etc etc, but just one person might of gone, oh whats an Amiga? oh its a old 80s computer I never heard of, oh I might have to check that out and find out more about that! oh cool there an emulator / film / whole community behind it, I might join them.

See what happens if you just start locking things away that no one can see them, I admit it, its unlikly that the above happend, but you never know. I just feel its a real shame that some classic and real cool Amiga videos are starting to be locked away and I feel it should all fair use now.

Anyway like to know what the community thinks.
Thanks."
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Old 26 May 2016, 14:47   #2
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This would make a sense for me only if the one who claims the copyright would let this get removed from Youtube AND uploaded it under his own channel. Otherwise its a bullshit for me.
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Old 26 May 2016, 17:37   #3
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I agree with the original poster here, the video for the Amiga launch has been taken down because of some dubious copyright claim. These things are computing history and should NOT BE TOUCHED and SHOULD BE public domain.

Again the copyright holders fucking things up.
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Old 26 May 2016, 17:43   #4
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Cloanto is nuts. Nintendo made themselves fools taking down the Let's plays, but this is beyond that. No words.
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Old 26 May 2016, 20:50   #5
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Could someone ask Cloanto for an explanation?
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Old 27 May 2016, 10:58   #6
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I am a firm believer that now more than ever before in human history we need effective (international) copyright laws - my only argument would be the outrageously generous lengthy terms given to copyright. IMHO no more than 30 years - thats it, work goes into the public domain.

But that is an argument for another day.

In regards to using copyright work, (if you like or not) you have some leeway -

"Fair Use" which I find quite an abhorrent "grey area" should allow you to use copyright work to critique, parody and educate, - but this "Fair Use" is so questionably defined that it leaves to the user and owner without any real knowing of what is right by the public.

All to often those with the most money will win in a copyright law suit, irrespective - is it right? No, sadly not in anyway.

I have had few youtube videos taken down with copyright claims - which is quite hilarious since it's mainly videos about Spectrum's, Emulation and general specialist information on said systems.

UMG media are a real pain with their claim of ownership - and yes I have had to deal with them via recorded post - (that gets their attention if YouTube doesn't *and very rarely does*).

But thats all solved done and dusted (in the above instance they were claiming copyright on audio grounds - apparently "Deadly_Cookies: alien breed remix" was theirs - LOL, which as you know isn't.

What we have here however is slightly different, Cloanto claims to own the copyright to "The Work" aka the source material. As such I will assume that they legally do for my following thoughts

Now, you would be aloud to use this under "Fair Use" policy - I would suggest that you have a good search on what "Fair Use" means to you and your projects - especially what YouTube deems as fair use (if you can nail it down )

Now, you should inform the owners of the original work that you plan to do with their work under "fair use" - (please note I said inform not request) - if they have issue with what you plan on using then they will contact you.

Personally I think this issue could of been avoided if you contacted Cloanto before you used their work - explaining what you wanted to do with it and reached a compromise of use and even links and back links for Clonato (this way everyone wins).

This may still be done if you contact them.

One day, Europe may develop sensible copyright laws with reasonable terms of public and private use.
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Old 27 May 2016, 11:33   #7
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I'm not against protecting copyright; I'm just against Cloanto protecting their copyright on things they never created in any way in the first place.
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Old 27 May 2016, 11:36   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
I'm not against protecting copyright; I'm just against Cloanto protecting their copyright on things they never created in any way in the first place.
<br />
<br />
welcome to the future of the 3.X platform, the more money will be generated the worse it will become. But the community seems to prefer it that way (sorry for my sarcasm).

Last edited by OlafSch; 27 May 2016 at 11:57.
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Old 27 May 2016, 11:55   #9
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And when companies like Cloanto go around doing stupid things like this, it makes me want to go back to the good old days and resurrect pirating and if I did then their CDs etc would be the first to seek attention although they already are freely available on the interweb so I am a bit too late for that
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Old 27 May 2016, 14:32   #10
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It happened to me,I uploaded a Airwolf video and it was a abit from a episode about 2 mins long and cos of the sound track I was using, youtube block the whole video so had to change it with different sound and music.,mad,Airwolf came out in 1984,over 30 years ago and it still copyrighted.Well there are hoping they can still sale it on DVD.Most fans have it on DVD like me.

Thats the problem people are still trying to make money from the Amiga now.

I have clearly said, I don't like Cloanto,I don't agree with them having copyright to the Workbench or the Kickstarts but that's another story.

Just thinking ,how did they get copyright to a video they didn't make,the owner of the video must of sold the copyright to them so blame the owner of the video.

Last edited by spannernick; 27 May 2016 at 15:21.
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Old 27 May 2016, 15:57   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spannernick View Post
the owner of the video must of sold the copyright to them
Oh yes, I'm sure Cloanto has all the copyrights for everything well documented and do not rely on intimidation tactics at all.
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Old 27 May 2016, 18:56   #12
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Update: Cloanto have been in touch they are working behind the scene to reverse the stikes, no idea if the video can come back online, they are looking into the matter as they said they dont really actively police Youtube, but because of recent commercial films they kind have been forced to tighten control (from the sound of things, not really by there choice). hopefully we can get though this, and both sides can learn from it. thanks for your support guys.

PS: I did email them as soon as it happened and I had that channel for 9 years no problems, until now, funny after two COMMUNITY backed films got made that suddenly interest and value is placed on these 30 year old videos. I blaim more them than Cloanto.
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Old 27 May 2016, 21:42   #13
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Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
I am a firm believer that now more than ever before in human history we need effective (international) copyright laws - my only argument would be the outrageously generous lengthy terms given to copyright. IMHO no more than 30 years - thats it, work goes into the public domain.
All copyright laws are made after an obsolete system and shouldn't exist anymore. We don't need more of those, we need a new system. Fuck copyright.

To add up, two things are being confused here: copyright and author rights:

Quote:
What we have here however is slightly different, Cloanto claims to own the copyright to "The Work" aka the source material. As such I will assume that they legally do for my following thoughts[/B]
There's no way Cloanto can own the work. The work here is the video itself which was shot and edited by someone, and by contract the license to use it might have been transferred temporarily or indefinitely or not to some other company like commodore to USE however they wanted, but the AUTHORSHIP still remains with whoever made the video in the first place, probably. Having worked in video for a long time, I can tell you, that most times you don't sell any fucking authorship to a client. Because there's no point/need.

Cloanto has NO GROUNDS to claim rights on it. What are the grounds? What have you breached? Does ANYONE remember that all Cloanto has is the license to redistribute the kickstart ROMs and workbench? REDISTRIBUTE. They can't even claim the "Amiga" name and if that's all there is to it, are they calling copyright shots on anyone that uses an Amiga logo regardless of the context?

Why did they do a claim in the first place and under what circumstances???

A video like the AMIGA LAUNCH video is a historical event documentation. even if they COULD at all claim anything of it (which I am sure the don't), what the fuck is the benefit of taking it down? If at all, they have damaged everyone by blocking a historical event from being seen online by everybody. It's fucking disgusting.

Last edited by Akira; 27 May 2016 at 21:47.
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Old 27 May 2016, 21:48   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
There's no way Cloanto can own the work. The work here is the video itself which was shot and edited by someone, and by contract the icense to use it might have been transferred temporarily or indefinitely or not to some other company like commodore to USE however they wanted, but the AUTHORSHIP still remains with whoever made the video in the first place, probably.
Not so sure about that..
Copyright isn't authorship..

You don't have to have built something to own it's copyright..
You can buy the copyright...

Not saying it's right or wrong...
But from a business perspective, you are allowed to buy copyrights and do (mostly) what you want with them, which frequently involves attempts to profit. And trying to make a profit isn't necessarily wrong.

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Old 28 May 2016, 11:14   #15
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If anything the Amiga launch video was promotional material for Commodore at the time so they'd most likely be happy for it to being in the public domain = sales!
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Old 28 May 2016, 16:59   #16
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http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-02-00027-EN.html

Cloanto confirms transfers of Commodore/Amiga copyrights
In the last few months, Cloanto started distributing Amiga System Software - the publisher traditionally refers to it as "Workbench" instead of "AmigaOS" - on CF cards, Floppy Disks and as a downloadable Workbench Disk Image Pack. Approached by Amiga-News, Cloanto's Michael Battilana confirmed that the company owns the copyrights for all works created by the Commodore/Amiga companies up to 1993.


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Old 28 May 2016, 18:50   #17
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My recommendation to Cloanto would be to allow the videos to be distributed, but with a Cloanta watermark or intro/outro screen.
So it stays available and possibly drives some business their way.
Maybe even tell youtubers that you can use some of our clips, as long as you mention that you got them from Cloanto somewhere in your vid...

Win Win...

I'm really glad they are now distributing (allowing distribution of) Workbenches and Kickstarts..
So I'll stay positive on this..

But that's just me... :-)

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Old 28 May 2016, 18:59   #18
Zetr0
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@amigang

Quote:
Originally Posted by amigang
Update: Cloanto have been in touch they are working behind the scene to reverse the stikes, no idea if the video can come back online, they are looking into the matter as they said they dont really actively police Youtube, but because of recent commercial films they kind have been forced to tighten control (from the sound of things, not really by there choice). hopefully we can get though this, and both sides can learn from it. thanks for your support guys.
I am pleased that they contacted you - hopefully you can get this sorted - I suspect, in part blame, it is the auto IP content management system employed by YouTube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amigang
PS: I did email them as soon as it happened and I had that channel for 9 years no problems, until now, funny after two COMMUNITY backed films got made that suddenly interest and value is placed on these 30 year old videos. I blaim more them than Cloanto
I have to admit, if you get the opportunity to watch Bedroom to Billions you will see what a labour of love the authors managed to produce. I have yet to watch The Amiga Years, but some good friends tell me its really good, even better.


@Akira
Its been a while my friend - good to read you on here!

Settle in buddy, its a long reply =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
All copyright laws are made after an obsolete system and shouldn't exist anymore. We don't need more of those, we need a new system. Fuck copyright.
I agree copyright laws are based on an obsolete system. at its very heart a copyright is a legal monopoly.

However I do disagree with "and shouldn't exist any more" - personally I think they should just not in the manner that they are today.

"fuck copyright"... really

What would protect YOU if someone used your work for financial gain at a financial detriment to you?
"We cannot all be farmers for our food, nurses for our wounds and doctors for our ailments - we have a society and markets based around technology and intellectual products - their time, investment and effort needs to be met as much as the farmers, nurses and doctors - in fact some of these people owning intellectual products would be farmers, nurses and doctors"
If I write a song or paint a painting - I am creating intellectual property - if I write some code or design a new PCB - I am creating intellectual property - while one side is physically tangible - the other is intellectual so we ALL benefit from a legal frame work that protects our physical possession from theft and our intellectual work from abuse - I am not saying what we have does all that - but it is supposed to.
Please note, I wont get into the debate about copyright infringement being theft - because I do not believe that it is, nor will I give any credence to anyone whom believes in perpetual copyright - thats just insane and massively stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
To add up, two things are being confused here: copyright and author rights:
From my knowledge I am not the one confused here, so I will try and see what you are alluding too, you can quote me if I am wrong =)

Copyright is granted the instant of a materials creation to the author. The author can be an individual or a corporation. Most corporations (in most markets) will have development teams in house where as others license the copyrighted material from individuals / groups.

It is in the terms of these licenses that contain the pertinent information of ownership (licensee and licensor) - in most cases of exclusive copyright contracts - I am sure that there are caveats when upon liquidation of licensee the rights to the work will return to the original copyright holder. However liquidation does bring in administration, and by that extension may, unless there is such a caveat in the license agreement, the administration process could retain the exclusive copyright contract and sell it on.

As one can imagine - copyright law is pretty much a wild frontier crossed with a mine field

However in regards to these videos I suspect they were commissioned by CBM and whom ever bought the copyrights to that work will now own it.

However there is a caveat to this, should this work have been placed (in whole or in part) in the public domain, they cannot take it back out again.


(Getting to the point, stick with me Akira )


An interesting point that you raised though is it possible upon the liquidation of CBM the rights to the copyrighted work return to the original author?

Well here is where it will get sticky, if the author was an employee of CBM at the time, then very VERY unlikely - if however the copyrighted work was commissioned (exclusive license) - then it is entirely possible that the original author would now own the copyright for that material.

Good luck with that in court - it would cost a serious amount of dollars to get to the bottom of that one.


(Closing thoughts?)


All in all Akira, I do share your frustration with copyright, it is far from a workable system of fairness - but we can only change this when enough people come together and push through change in our legal systems.

you cannot change a closed system when you are not part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acd2001 View Post
http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-02-00027-EN.html

Cloanto confirms transfers of Commodore/Amiga copyrights
In the last few months, Cloanto started distributing Amiga System Software - the publisher traditionally refers to it as "Workbench" instead of "AmigaOS" - on CF cards, Floppy Disks and as a downloadable Workbench Disk Image Pack. Approached by Amiga-News, Cloanto's Michael Battilana confirmed that the company owns the copyrights for all works created by the Commodore/Amiga companies up to 1993.
Quote:
Included ADF files:
  • Workbench 3.1 Floppy Disk Set (6 images)
  • Workbench 2.1 Floppy Disk Set (5 images)
  • Workbench 1.3 Floppy Disk Set (2 images)
  • Kickstart 1.3 Floppy Disk (for Amiga 1000 systems)
  • Superkickstart 1.3+2.04 Floppy Disk (for early Amiga 3000 systems)
  • Relokick 1.4a Floppy Disk (to downgrade newer systems to 1.3, code included by courtesy of Galahad of Fairlight)
Included HDF files:
  • Workbench 3.1 Hard Disk
  • Workbench 2.1 Hard Disk



For under $10 - this seems very very reasonable - true if you Google the crap out of the internet and find these - but $10 (£6.50 GBP)

4 OS's, 1 Boot Disk and 2 Read Rocking Hard files sounds like a great deal to me..


Would be great if we could get a Classic Workbench Version - perhaps an extended license from Cloanto with a donation or something - I would certainly buy the shit out of that.
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Old 29 May 2016, 00:33   #19
Lord Aga
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All copyright laws are made after an obsolete system and shouldn't exist anymore. We don't need more of those, we need a new system. Fuck copyright.
I agree with Akira 100% !

And I do believe he was talking about the system as it is now. Of course we need laws. But we need laws that tell the difference between earning loads of money on someone else's work, and making silly stuff like funny videos and PD games.

Patent trolling needs to die.
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Old 29 May 2016, 01:17   #20
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I find it strange it would get taken down I mean it would have only had 5 views lmao.
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