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Old 26 May 2016, 12:05   #201
eXeler0
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So much so - I will spend the rest of the year developing a CGX or even an open platform driver - its been a while since I hit the metal on the Amiga, and this kind of activity can really motivate (kick in the arse) to change things.

There is always Kickstarter, Indigogo and GoFund me if anyone wants to raise a bit on the existing P96 worth.
While I dont have a problem with paying license fees, I'd MUCH rather throw my money on a community CGFX effort than supporting Mafioso-style business by som other ppl...


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Old 26 May 2016, 12:51   #202
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@grond<br />
<br />
it is not only if there is enough life for alternatives (indeed there is and components could be backported) but most people exactly want certain commercial components (only think of the partly hateful reactions when aros was announced as primary target platform for vampire). I needed some time to understand because I always thought that people would finally prefer a free alternative, but I was wrong. That will also mean that they have to pay for anything like the 4.X users all always made a fun of. It is their decision so they have to live (and pay) with the consequences. There were always people forecasting that but I did not want to believe it (silly me) but even I learn after some time. Now to all... pay (for everything), your choice your money
Once I get my Vampire, I will have both a CF (or SD) card with AROS and one with AOS 3.9, just to get familiar with both systems.
Some of the complaints Ive heard regarding AROS was its speed, but thats just a developing issue. As things get optimized, performance increases. But as you say, people has a pre-determined opinion about something based on its CURRENT performance, not on its potential.
Which is a pity.
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Old 26 May 2016, 13:04   #203
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@Overflow&lt;br /&gt;<br />
&lt;br /&gt;<br />
Opensource lives from participating, it is not just money. Participating means testing, using it, giving feedback. Most people are passive, not willing to invest time in something to become a alternative in future, they say oh this and that is faster/better/more optimized on 3.X, why do we need something else? And because of that there will never be a alternative in reality, also if I look at Gunnars comments it is obvious that he prefers 3.X and not really stands behind something different, it would have been only a alternative when 3.X not works. I personal have no problem with it, you could say it creates a market for some commercial development. The other side is 3.X users will (similar to 4.X users) pay for everything then and there will be a dependency on the copyright owners. Not my idea of the future so not my way...<br />
<br />
Anyway I have more interesting things I am busy now... I have bought a smartphone recently and still playing around with it, have a new software for app-development I am working with and nice game-development environment I can do games for mobile devices and browsers. Lots of interesting things to do (and useful for work mostly), I am not missing amiga stuff at the moment.

Last edited by OlafSch; 26 May 2016 at 13:28.
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Old 26 May 2016, 13:47   #204
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So much energy wasted in this and some other topics. Just 1% from time time wasted on arguing on the forums invested in coding, soldering, designing for Amiga we wouldn't be in situation where we are now. As I see it complete things began to happen because competition who is not welcomed at all.
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Old 26 May 2016, 14:46   #205
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So much so - I will spend the rest of the year developing a CGX or even an open platform driver - its been a while since I hit the metal on the Amiga, and this kind of activity can really motivate (kick in the arse) to change things.
there is initiative of heiroglyph on this site to adopt aros cgx system for amiga, however i have not heard of him after i sent him aros configuration suited to test on his hardware.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...ght=heiroglyph

.. for the sake of it, while i trust it will be another strawfire, especially no idividual here can sustain a bigger project all alone.

people need to learn to cooperate within a bigger structure, alas, even if its trade off, rather than insist on pulling their own thing. aros provides such a structure. if more 68k people contributed, we would not only have a free rtg system but a whole working os replacement by now..
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Old 26 May 2016, 16:06   #206
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people need to learn to cooperate within a bigger structure, alas, even if its trade off, rather than insist on pulling their own thing. aros provides such a structure. if more 68k people contributed, we would not only have a free rtg system but a whole working os replacement by now..
I do agree with what you say, but up to some extent. Aros 68k fails terribly, IMHO, in the way it is implemented. I share much the view of Heiroglyph on that particular subject. Aros68k fails massively due to the way it is structured. It is not a 1:1 AmigOS replacement project, which would have been very useful for regression tests. We cannot mix and replace Amiga binaries and expect the system to work. There is a lot of non Amiga API code (HID for example, or whatever it is called) that have nothing to do with AmigaOS. Then you have compiler generated code, which seems to be huge and bloated compared with ancient AmigaOS C compilers. There is now way to mix and reuse RomTags without a great rework. And the list could go on forever.

So, for me, in order to put Aros68k back on track a fork or a complete roadmap change is required, because if it continues to follow the way it has, it will certainly still be what it is now: an outcast from real Amiga hardware destined solely for some corner case use.

I really hope this changes.
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Old 26 May 2016, 16:35   #207
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I will be honest CGX is far better than P96 - consider P96 the lowest common denominator - it was only really popularized with WinUAE and to some extent the Mediator series of adaptors.



The only way Jen's (or anyone) would invest money is if there is a financial return on that investment, and I suspect in this case that will be a 12 month cycle.

I have to admit reading about a developer whom loses his shit over a competing RTG graphics adaptor - so much so he will "threaten" to buy the rights to deny any chance of a completing its development under threat of law - that maybe some businesses, but its not one I would want to do any trade with.


So much so - I will spend the rest of the year developing a CGX or even an open platform driver - its been a while since I hit the metal on the Amiga, and this kind of activity can really motivate (kick in the arse) to change things.

There is always Kickstarter, Indigogo and GoFund me if anyone wants to raise a bit on the existing P96 worth.
If a kickstarter campaign is started that can provide a truly open source RTG driver then i would rather support that much more than paying a license fee, i believe other people would too. Enough of the problems with P96, time to move on.
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Old 26 May 2016, 19:10   #208
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I do agree with what you say, but up to some extent. Aros 68k fails terribly, IMHO, in the way it is implemented. I share much the view of Heiroglyph on that particular subject. Aros68k fails massively due to the way it is structured. It is not a 1:1 AmigOS replacement project, which would have been very useful for regression tests. We cannot mix and replace Amiga binaries and expect the system to work. There is a lot of non Amiga API code (HID for example, or whatever it is called) that have nothing to do with AmigaOS. Then you have compiler generated code, which seems to be huge and bloated compared with ancient AmigaOS C compilers. There is now way to mix and reuse RomTags without a great rework. And the list could go on forever.

So, for me, in order to put Aros68k back on track a fork or a complete roadmap change is required, because if it continues to follow the way it has, it will certainly still be what it is now: an outcast from real Amiga hardware destined solely for some corner case use.

I really hope this changes.
hoping doesnt account for much.

such things mus be discussed. not aggressively, and one by one, compromises may be found. but it needs that people get involved, they of course cant simply overthrow how aros is structured for now, but working their way in, earning trust of the team as jason did, they can adjust things in a way more favourable for us (68k). it is at least a possibility.

i dont see any other infrastructure thet would provide such possibility, since simply there is no other open and working amiga os reimplementation ot there.

heiroglyph approach is all fine, and im supporting him, but i doubt that it is maintainable. he had several projects worked in in the last years but he didnt publish them up till now, so this is an example of what im saying, an individual cant lift such a burden alone, no matter how skilled, and how much good will he has at a given point. all alone he will eventually give up. we need to team up, as apollo people did.
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Old 26 May 2016, 19:11   #209
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If a kickstarter campaign is started that can provide a truly open source RTG driver then i would rather support that much more than paying a license fee, i believe other people would too. Enough of the problems with P96, time to move on.
unfortunatelly i think this train has departed. one way or the other p96 will remain to be closed source and proprietary, with a public ddk (examples) best case. either we go along with this or we need to find something else. aros cgx as such is working on my a4k with p4 or cv64 rather well for the time being, there is one main bug i hope toni looks after, when ready with uae3.3, and few non critical. however also aros cgx uses currently p96 driver files via wrapper. native drivers would be another matter.
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Old 26 May 2016, 21:40   #210
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@wawa
The participants (at least at a1k.org) are clear about the fact, that there are updates and bugfixes already in some drawer (thor...).
So one can assume the next to be available P96 will be different from the old Aminet archive and improved as well.
Nobody must pay as it will stay free of choice - like shareware.
On the other hand maybe the hardware vendors will have to get a license per device - we will see.
To publish a half open DDK would be stupid - J. has never been proved stupid so far (AFAIK).
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Old 26 May 2016, 21:59   #211
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native drivers would be another matter.
Linux drivers can be used as a starting point. Many years ago I used my Cybervision 64/3D with Linux/68k.
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Old 26 May 2016, 22:42   #212
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Linux drivers can be used as a starting point. Many years ago I used my Cybervision 64/3D with Linux/68k.
or net bsd. its also rather well supported what concerns amiga hardware, even pci bridges and actively maintained. i tried to interest radoslaw with an option to help out wth aros, but he refused. also phx doesnt seem to have much entusiasm for it. its a pity.
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Old 26 May 2016, 23:57   #213
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Seems to be everything fine for now. DDK will be free for developers, user has to register driver. Development of a newer version is already ongoing.
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Old 27 May 2016, 05:49   #214
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I'll just chime in here since I was mentioned directly.

If you aren't skeptical of what I'm working on, you should be. It's not easy and it's likely to go nowhere like most projects do. I haven't even had an offer of help other than Jim Drew offering optimizations once it's at that point. (Thanks Jim!)

I'm personally glad to see that most people aren't posting news about it all over like it's a huge deal.

I'm finishing up a project that I already had started, learning the Aros codebase so that I'm familiar with what's there and honestly, waiting to see what's happening with P96 and CGX before I dive in.

This isn't a project I'm particularly interested in, I just think someone needs to do something.
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Old 27 May 2016, 06:14   #215
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I'll just chime in here since I was mentioned directly.

If you aren't skeptical of what I'm working on, you should be. It's not easy and it's likely to go nowhere like most projects do. I haven't even had an offer of help other than Jim Drew offering optimizations once it's at that point. (Thanks Jim!)

I'm personally glad to see that most people aren't posting news about it all over like it's a huge deal.

I'm finishing up a project that I already had started, learning the Aros codebase so that I'm familiar with what's there and honestly, waiting to see what's happening with P96 and CGX before I dive in.

This isn't a project I'm particularly interested in, I just think someone needs to do something.
Seeing as Zetro on here has mentioned he will start on a driver, maybe you two can get together on a project. It's certainly worth having a chat about.
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Old 27 May 2016, 11:15   #216
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Seems to be everything fine for now. DDK will be free for developers, user has to register driver. Development of a newer version is already ongoing.
We will see what will happen in future... there were two visions of a possible future, a open and free platform but needing participation and not passive sitting (and moaning about costs or lack of progress) or a closed but commercial platform with again being dependent on individuals (copyright owners) and of course paying for everything. Obviously most are for the second, but then I would recommend people not to moan about what might happen because I will remind everyone what he wrote.
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Old 27 May 2016, 13:26   #217
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a small update... Jens S. has posted that the old P96 archive will stay in internet, all old drivers will be legalized just that the new updated and bugfixed version will be sold with his shop. That does not sound that bad I must admit, users still have the choice and not legal actions against the developers. Still wondering why he used such a aggressive tone in his message though.
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Old 27 May 2016, 13:36   #218
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Well, he saw the reactions in the community, and adjusted his compass..or his communication skills failed him at this point. Sometimes he can be interpreted as being harsh, while I don't think this is his intention.. wow.. look at me, "defending" JS. My other criticism still stands though.

In the end the p96 issue looks to turn out reasonably well. We'll see.

Last edited by roomeo; 27 May 2016 at 13:51. Reason: More blablabla
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Old 27 May 2016, 13:43   #219
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Well, he saw the reactions in the community, and adjusted his compass..
he says that he always had and expressed this intentions. If yes then his harsh message that created the discussions is even less understandable
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Old 27 May 2016, 13:56   #220
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I don't understand a lot of his actions. This is one of them. I just don't think he seeks all these shitstorms intentional. But after some time you should have learnt a lesson or two on how to communicate with demanding old grumpy geeks like us.

Last edited by roomeo; 27 May 2016 at 14:03. Reason: Yo mama!
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