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Old 19 February 2016, 09:13   #21
eXeler0
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Where exactly did he insult the the entire demo scene?
The "About a thousand and all the same. AGA is barely scratched. " -part.

A lot of very creative and skilled ppl put their heart and soul into producing numerous fantastic demos over the decades, pushing the Amiga hardware. Calling them ""all the same" and "barely scratching" the surface is an arrogant statement at best IMO.
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Old 19 February 2016, 09:17   #22
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The "About a thousand and all the same. AGA is barely scratched. " -part.

A lot of very creative and skilled ppl put their heart and soul into producing numerous fantastic demos over the decades, pushing the Amiga hardware. Calling them ""all the same" and "barely scratching" the surface is an arrogant statement at best IMO.
Well, AGA _IS_ barely scratched. Like Akira said, most AGA-demos rely on accelerators to do all the work and then just use the AGA-chipset as a framebuffer. This doesn't make the AGA-demos any less fantastic though.

But I suggest you put your money where your mouth is and start working on that Vampire-demo now, show us what wonders the Apollo-core can do.
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Old 19 February 2016, 09:39   #23
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Well, AGA _IS_ barely scratched. Like Akira said, most AGA-demos rely on accelerators to do all the work and then just use the AGA-chipset as a framebuffer. This doesn't make the AGA-demos any less fantastic though.

But I suggest you put your money where your mouth is and start working on that Vampire-demo now, show us what wonders the Apollo-core can do.
Does this mean you will code a demo that shows the true power of AGA then?

Also, like Akira you seem to believe these are somehow mutually exclusive. I hope we're not yet down to one last coder, and he needs to decide to code for either an A500 or A1200 or Apollo-core.
Keep coding on whatever hardware you want, but why be opposed to a demo that demonstrates the power of a new system to inspire other dev? The Apollo-core is rather pointless if everyone has the attitude that nothing new should be coded for it.
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Old 19 February 2016, 09:46   #24
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Does this mean you will code a demo that shows the true power of AGA then?
Time will tell

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Keep coding on whatever hardware you want, but why be opposed to a demo that demonstrates the power of a new system to inspire other dev?
I'm not opposed to a demo for the Apollo-core, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

The problem is that most people who show interest in a demo for the Apollo-core are the ones who don't want to do anything themselves, they just wait for that magic "someone" to do stuff for them. I'm repeating myself here, but if you really want something happening on the Apollo-core front, start doing stuff yourself, that's the best way to get other people excited.
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Old 19 February 2016, 10:19   #25
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Time will tell

I'm not opposed to a demo for the Apollo-core, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

The problem is that most people who show interest in a demo for the Apollo-core are the ones who don't want to do anything themselves, they just wait for that magic "someone" to do stuff for them. I'm repeating myself here, but if you really want something happening on the Apollo-core front, start doing stuff yourself, that's the best way to get other people excited.
Society consists of other ppl than 68k assembler wizards, we've all made our choices in life 😆
I'm a gfx guy with that once worked in the gaming industry, and I'd gladly help with 3d stuff for a demo if someone asks nicely ☺
However, the Apollo-core team is aiming to fulfil the old Natami dream. The team consists of a lot of clever people and you'd imagine that there will come a day when they want to show to the world what their baby is capable of. 😆
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Old 19 February 2016, 10:30   #26
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The team consists of a lot of clever people and you'd imagine that there will come a day when they want to show to the world what their baby is capable of. 😆
Until that day comes, I'm not holding my breath
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Old 19 February 2016, 10:37   #27
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I think people tend to remember the A500 demos as i suppose they were more memorable, by the time AGA demos were hitting, they just didn't seem to have the 'wow' factor in the same way, some were good yeah, but by the time of the mid 90s and they were trying to make proper 3D routines, they just didn't match up to the dinosaur on the PS1.

But there were thousands of AGA demos that pushed the hardware, i used to have loads of those AGA demo compilation CD's back in the mid 90's that didn't use accelerators, so to say there wasn't any is incorrect, again it was just the OCS demos wow us more with 1985 hardware.
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Old 19 February 2016, 11:11   #28
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I think people tend to remember the A500 demos as i suppose they were more memorable, by the time AGA demos were hitting, they just didn't seem to have the 'wow' factor in the same way, some were good yeah, but by the time of the mid 90s and they were trying to make proper 3D routines, they just didn't match up to the dinosaur on the PS1.

But there were thousands of AGA demos that pushed the hardware, i used to have loads of those AGA demo compilation CD's back in the mid 90's that didn't use accelerators, so to say there wasn't any is incorrect, again it was just the OCS demos wow us more with 1985 hardware.
And of course the audience was MUCH bigger for OCS demos. Thus more people are remembering them with fond thoughts.

AGA came little late and only minority of Amiga users went for it really, and AGA demos aren't seen in that degree.

I remember that I enjoyed a lot of the more colorful AGA demos back then before the accelerator/C2P times. Something like Real by Complex, Nexus7 by Andromeda, etc.
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Old 19 February 2016, 11:40   #29
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And of course the audience was MUCH bigger for OCS demos. Thus more people are remembering them with fond thoughts.

AGA came little late and only minority of Amiga users went for it really, and AGA demos aren't seen in that degree.

I remember that I enjoyed a lot of the more colorful AGA demos back then before the accelerator/C2P times. Something like Real by Complex, Nexus7 by Andromeda, etc.
And sometimes we even forget that the first AGA Amiga had a 040 CPU. ;-)
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Old 19 February 2016, 11:44   #30
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And sometimes we even forget that the first AGA Amiga had a 040 CPU. ;-)
That no demo at the time actually used
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Old 19 February 2016, 11:58   #31
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Anyway, about the Apollo-core: Why on earth as a democoder would I want to make an Apollo-core demo (it wouldn't be an Amiga-demo, because it wouldn't work on any other Amiga setup) and limit myself to an even tinier audience than I already do? If I want more CPU-power or gfx-features, there are far better options available if I'm abandoning the Amiga anyway.

Edit: It's pretty much the same situation as with PPC-amigas, there's very little classic Amiga left in the platform.
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Old 19 February 2016, 12:26   #32
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Anyway, about the Apollo-core: Why on earth as a democoder would I want to make an Apollo-core demo (it wouldn't be an Amiga-demo, because it wouldn't work on any other Amiga setup) and limit myself to an even tinier audience than I already do? If I want more CPU-power or gfx-features, there are far better options available if I'm abandoning the Amiga anyway.

Edit: It's pretty much the same situation as with PPC-amigas, there's very little classic Amiga left in the platform.
Well, I'd say Natami idea is different to PPC for one huge and important reason. Legacy compatibility in hardware, not software emulation. But that's another topic...
OK, so you are simply not the guy that will do an Apollo-core demo, that's fine. Go code vanilla A1200 demos, we love those too. I love c64 demos too btw.. and 64k PC category.. list is actually pretty long ;-) But someone else with a different attitude than you might wanna look at this new platform and explore it.
Let's not have a problem with that 😆
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Old 19 February 2016, 12:31   #33
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Go code vanilla A1200 demos, we love those too.
Yes, I will, and I already have.

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I love c64 demos too btw.. and 64k PC category.. list is actually pretty long ;-)
Been there, done those

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But someone else with a different attitude than you might wanna look at this new platform and explore it.
Not holding my breath for this to happen though
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Old 19 February 2016, 18:07   #34
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Yes, I will, and I already have.

Been there, done those
Cool, anything on YouTube?
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Old 19 February 2016, 18:17   #35
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Cool, anything on YouTube?
Sure, search for "dekadence" and "c64" for some of my c64-stuff. The PC 64k's are so old that I guess there are no captures
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Old 23 February 2016, 15:34   #36
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Maybe we can run old demos with Vampire?

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 23 February 2016, 20:39   #37
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Maybe we can run old demos with Vampire?

[ Show youtube player ]
Cool, it's also a good way to "beta test" the FPGA core by running a bunch of "metal-hitting" assembly code... 😉
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Old 24 February 2016, 09:19   #38
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Cool, it's also a good way to "beta test" the FPGA core by running a bunch of "metal-hitting" assembly code... 😉
Except that the intro shown in the youtube video is neither assembly or metal-hitting

But yes, the highest priority in my opinion should be compatibility with existing software, and only after that should they think about extended features.
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Old 24 February 2016, 09:37   #39
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Except that the intro shown in the youtube video is neither assembly or metal-hitting

But yes, the highest priority in my opinion should be compatibility with existing software, and only after that should they think about extended features.
But that's the thing with Apollo-core isn't it.. it may still be a bit rough around the edges but the goal *is* to make it the most compatible 68k CPU to date and the fact that it exists in an FPGA allows the devs to hunt down issues for years ahead... Even Motorola "failed" at that. (by choice probably, but still... the 060 is no good to us without cybrrpatcher, 060 libs and what not)
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Old 24 February 2016, 09:42   #40
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But that's the thing with Apollo-core isn't it.. it may still be a bit rough around the edges but the goal *is* to make it the most compatible 68k CPU to date and the fact that it exists in an FPGA allows the devs to hunt down issues for years ahead..
Yes, but adding all these useless extended features are bound to break compatibility (not necessarily at cpu-level, but in general). Which is why I'd rather see them implement a pure accelerator first without any kind of additional crap added, but making sure it could actually serve as a replacement for an 060-card (as in, it would actually run ALL existing 060 software).
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