English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > News

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06 January 2016, 03:02   #41
wawa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: berlin/germany
Posts: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthey View Post
The reason was given as trolling and Kremlar's post states "Last edited by eliyahu; Today at 02:10 PM.. Reason: removed quote from trolling post".

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70293

Half the posts in this thread could also be considered trolling by the same strict guidelines. Here on EAB we can talk openly about such things but I have seen people banned and received a warning for talking about a hypothetical NG Amiga. I don't understand all this censorship. I might have to use your forum for controversial Amiga discussions .



Maybe, but even the groups (I don't want to say camps) in the FPGA Amiga revolution are not working together enough and need outside help. The lack of 68k AmigaOS development and support is a road block as AROS is far from optimized enough for a low end CPU. Incompatible hardware is likely to arise due to lack of cooperation and standards. There is unlikely to be better support in compiler backends for the 68k with low production numbers and for an FPGA CPU. Amiga software in general does not get outside developer support because of the small divided market and differing APIs. Even if the Amiga people who could make a difference all worked together, it may be too late for the Amiga. You are more of an optimist than me.
aros 68k is not optimized enough because barely anyone works on it. and if none works noting will be improved. and since it isnt improved enough it doesnt attract the coders. its a dead lock. so in this situation a moron like me, i stepped up on deadwoods encouragement and as effect we have scalos working on aros since yesterday. i intend to be going through all aspects that may improve features, performance, stability ans overall usability of aros on genuine amiga. sounds a bit bold, but im serious so far. certainly help from real coders would be welcome..
wawa is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 06 January 2016, 03:08   #42
wawa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: berlin/germany
Posts: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis View Post
begin moving OS4 to native x86 (which they must be doing already?).
thats some weird expectations!
wawa is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 03:18   #43
Aegis
Gentleman

Aegis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: The Fortesque Mansion
Posts: 235
Send a message via Skype™ to Aegis
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawa View Post
thats some weird expectations!
Not at all - running on commodity hardware would be massive for Hyperion. I've seen them voice their concerns about being a tiny fish in an ocean dominated by Microsoft, Apple and Linux but I don't see the PPC market as sustainable in the long-term - heck, it's only marginally sustainable now.

TBH though, it doesn't have to be x86, it could be ARM (or even emulated/FPGA 68k!) - PPC is a boondoggle.
Aegis is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 05:34   #44
gulliver
BoingBagged

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The South of nowhere
Age: 39
Posts: 1,498
I thought the post was an average internet troll, but now I see it seems it was Hyperion trolling Amiga users. They are deluding themselves into thinking they add value to the 68k usersbase and that users somehow must be thankful about that.

Anyway, I see this as really great news:

Hyperion will once again (and hopefully now for good) face bankrupcy for persuing copyright infringement on AmigaOS 3.1 sourcecode. This will certainly be a nice coffin nail for them. A more than 20 years old operating system beating their ass.

It is absurdly ridiculuos, but fun nontheless.
gulliver is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 06:53   #45
zerohour1974
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Swindon UK
Posts: 202
Really can't imagine Hyperion porting OS4 to x86. They have put all of their eggs in firmly in the PPC basket.

If the Genie is out of the bottle so to speak then it's going to hard for them to remove the code. Many will have downloaded it now but nobody is going to use it at this time.

Hyperion might go after the original person who leaked it but they probably don't have the resources.
zerohour1974 is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 08:26   #46
Overflow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 330
As a complete code/OS illiterate I dont really know if this leak will help development speed for example FPGA developers.

Personally I will defintly buy the Vampire FPGA if/when its released for A1200, so any developmentspeedup is very much welcome in that regard.

Overall; any AOS3.x improvement would be welcome for sure, but the question is; how will capable people that might find tweaking the OS intresting actually go ahead doing so in a coordinated way with Hyperion on the warpath....?
While I understand and agree in general with Copyrights, I feel that Hyperion in general have a tendency to undercommunicate. And when they communicate, its usually heavyhandily. A pity.

As a sidenote, I actually have AOS4FE for Winuae. Im not a hardcore anti NG/AOS4, nor a Hyperion fanboi. I mess around with AOS3.x+hardware and AOS4 for the fun of it (hobby), and find these socalled conflict lines curious.

And why Matthew got temp banned; a bit odd. He usually post in a informative manner, espesially compared to most AOS4 haters and fanbois that have no real content beyond flames back and forth.
Overflow is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 08:34   #47
Aegis
Gentleman

Aegis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: The Fortesque Mansion
Posts: 235
Send a message via Skype™ to Aegis
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerohour1974 View Post
Really can't imagine Hyperion porting OS4 to x86. They have put all of their eggs in firmly in the PPC basket.
What choice did they have? When they started developing OS4 that was the direction the Amiga hardware was headed thanks to Phase5, ACube, Eyetech, Genesi etc.

Now the only PPC players are A-Eon and ACube and the hardware is still prohibitively expensive - plus classic Amiga development has the future potential to leapfrog PPC in performance and x86 (via emulation) already has.

PPC is only going to get less appealing as an Amiga platform and it's not exactly doing volume sales now. Imagine if Amiga users could run OS4 on the Vampire? Or native on a 150 Asus laptop? Or a RaspPi?

Even A-Eon is hedging their bets with the ALICE.
Aegis is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 10:00   #48
kolla
Registered User
kolla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMF View Post
There seems to be a lot of lawyers here. Can anyone explain in layman terms for me how they can keep their intellectual property without defending it?
With a maintained revision system and backups? Nobody took the sources away from them, they still have it. All the drama is merely a play to the gallery.
kolla is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 11:01   #49
modrobert
old bearded fool

modrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangkok
Age: 50
Posts: 425
Quote:
Brussels, January 5, 2016


(as if a tight community need to inform each other with press releases)
modrobert is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 11:18   #50
OlafSch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Nuernberg
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthey View Post
The reason was given as trolling and Kremlar's post states "Last edited by eliyahu; Today at 02:10 PM.. Reason: removed quote from trolling post".

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70293

Half the posts in this thread could also be considered trolling by the same strict guidelines. Here on EAB we can talk openly about such things but I have seen people banned and received a warning for talking about a hypothetical NG Amiga. I don't understand all this censorship. I might have to use your forum for controversial Amiga discussions .



Maybe, but even the groups (I don't want to say camps) in the FPGA Amiga revolution are not working together enough and need outside help. The lack of 68k AmigaOS development and support is a road block as AROS is far from optimized enough for a low end CPU. Incompatible hardware is likely to arise due to lack of cooperation and standards. There is unlikely to be better support in compiler backends for the 68k with low production numbers and for an FPGA CPU. Amiga software in general does not get outside developer support because of the small divided market and differing APIs. Even if the Amiga people who could make a difference all worked together, it may be too late for the Amiga. You are more of an optimist than me.
I would personal prefer too that the involved parties would cooperate and not work to next other. But (if seen commercial) using new features that are specific for one core and not supported by UAE is a no-go anyway. The solution is to use the OS and not directly hack the hardware and use 68020 as standard. This of course requires the OS to be optimized. Yes Aros will certainly never replace 1.X or 2.X/3.X on standard amigas but it has the potential to become standard on fast (FPGA) hardware. For me new fast real hardware based on FPGAs and fast emulation (UAE) are the two sides of a coin, none can succedd without the other. Together they are a base for developers covering many users. So yes I am more optimistic now to bring more movement in our little market, certainly not with the expectation to overrun the market but strong enough to again attract new users and developers. Yes Aros is not as efficient on low hardware like 3.X was and is but for that there is the workbook bounty. Also I am working on a mid-level distribution for FPGA hardware and together with Wawa at a distribution for real hardware (below FPGA). We will see what happens.

Banned because of talking about potential NG amigas? What do you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by modrobert View Post


(as if a tight community need to inform each other with press releases)
you misunderstand that... they are the true Commodore successor and the only commercial company left so they need press releases for it

Last edited by TCD; 06 January 2016 at 12:29. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged.
OlafSch is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 13:37   #51
Cowcat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 325
@matthey

Quote:
All you 68k guys better not post over on amiga.org. I just got banned for a week for trolling.
Wonder if I subscribe to the forum & ask for updated WOS & apps !!! (ok it was H&P)....

Childish bulling : What the f is "banned for a week" ?, So 6 days & 23:59 hours you cannot post???
Those are the guys "up" in the community?

Happy to be on the "light side of the Force". Happy New Year Matt !
Cowcat is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 13:40   #52
Cool_amigaN
 
Posts: n/a
Claiming that it's somewhat Hyperion's fault that 3.x wasn't further developed is complete and utter bullshit. Some times, I feel that forums are crawled with either returning users that skipped an era entirely or by users with severe lack of memory. To begin with OS3.x was further developed till late 90s with 3.9 and by that time it was rather obvious to anyone who were actually using their Amigas that AOS on 68k was more irrelevant to every day computer usage compering to nowadays Amiga NG inspired systems. Check the mags or try to remember that even the fastest 060 (with all of its incompatibilities that brought) was already a cpu relic. The platform as we knew it, was done. Amigas were already getting PPC upgrades for some time (among 3rd party pci/gfx solutions) trying to keep up with the competition while the OS was incompatible from day one with that architecture and we were in need of a re-write in order to make it work. Seems some folks can't recall the anxiety or discussions about the PPC switch and that there were virtually no core applications to take advantage of it yet (with some minor exceptions like Wrap3D for example) or the fact that the OS itself was as I stated above incompatible (till MorphOS came out). Back then, there were only two options that made sense: switch to PPC and try to advance or stay on the stock/minor expanded 68k and keep it for gaming (like it is right now). None of the above had nothing to do with Hyperion, which came forward many years later. The stalling of classic AOS wasn't due to the closed sources or the OS itself, it was due to the old/underpowered hardware. Even on 2002 when the coldfire project was announced it was supposed to come under 266Mhz. Big deal. Of course even that had several 68k instruction set incompatibilities and needless to state that till 2005 it was rather obvious that the project was vaporware. What exactly do you think anyone could have tweak on OS3.x that would make it worthwhile or had a serious impact on it (and hadn't been added via a 3rd party already/uploaded to aminet)? Add some commands in order to avoid adding SetPatch? On the other hand non waporware/working FPGA add-ons is a very recent concept and now 3.x might actually need a small overhaul to take advantage of the new board (which of course I welcome, as I future Vampire owner). But claiming that it's Hyperion's fault that OS3.x was not further developed is plain lie and one shouldn't try to be a dick just for the shake of it.

Last edited by Cool_amigaN; 06 January 2016 at 13:48.
 
Old 06 January 2016, 14:17   #53
kolla
Registered User
kolla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 767
If you consider OS4 a "further development" of OS3.x, which they themselves insist that it is, then it is Hyperion's fault.
kolla is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 15:09   #54
wXR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 552
@Cool_amigaN

Until the OS4 (or MorphOS, for that matter) full source tree is on GitHub, I'm pretty sure nobody cares.
wXR is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 15:43   #55
clebin
Registered User
clebin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool_amigaN View Post
Claiming that it's somewhat Hyperion's fault that 3.x wasn't further developed is complete and utter bullshit.
Where was this said?
clebin is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 16:18   #56
ptyerman
Registered User

ptyerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Worksop/UK
Age: 53
Posts: 1,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by clebin View Post
Where was this said?
Shouldn't worry about it. Obviously the paid Hyperion PA folks are on the job trawling the forums and putting across their point.
ptyerman is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 17:00   #57
Knoeki
Princess Knoeki

Knoeki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 27
Posts: 38
Send a message via Skype™ to Knoeki
As I said in the other thread:

How is this biting the hand that feeds? I think the people interested in the 3.1 sources couldn't give a flying fuck about OS4.

If anything, these sources might help improve OS3.x and make it something better, and I think that's what's Hyperion is afraid of, that OS4 becomes even more irrelevant than it already is. (:
Knoeki is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 17:03   #58
Chucky
Registered User

Chucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Karlstad / Sweden
Age: 45
Posts: 233
4.0 is only an Amiga-emulator that maybe could be fun. but nahh. I bought 4.1FE to use on my CSPPC. booted it like twice. once to show a friend..
we want 3.x sources so we can do some changes and patches so we can use our beloved amigas some more. phew.. well.. sadly this is how Amiga has been the last.. 20 years.
Chucky is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 21:25   #59
matthey
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafSch View Post
Banned because of talking about potential NG amigas? What do you mean?
I was warned once by a moderator on EAB for mentioning what code would be optimal on a future FPGA 68k CPU and suggesting that we need to plan now for that CPU in the future. I was on topic but I guess spamming vaporware? Gunnar was banned for a short period (week?) for doing something similar (after a quick warning he may not have even had time to read) but he was posting in a thread with a topic asking for 68000 optimizations (off topic). The mods here are generally tolerant of most discussions but very sensitive of any discussion of an Amiga future. The mods on the A-EON forums are mostly AmigaOS 4 fan boys who wish to squelch any criticism of AmigaOS 4, PPC or the current "business plan". I have had too many of my posts disappear to waste my time posting there anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowcat View Post
Wonder if I subscribe to the forum & ask for updated WOS & apps !!! (ok it was H&P)....
WOS is nice in some ways but the Phase5 PPC hardware setup is not optimal with the context switches (my 68060 should not be as close in performance to the newer P5 PPC hardware). Vbcc makes compiling some applications like Quake for WOS easy at least. AmigaOS 4 all PPC native is a better solution but probably has become sluggish for the old PPC hardware and less compatible with a classic Amiga? The P5 PPC hardware was meant to be a temporary bridge to more powerful all PPC hardware but that bridge looks shaky and has a high toll today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowcat View Post
Childish bulling : What the f is "banned for a week" ?, So 6 days & 23:59 hours you cannot post???
Those are the guys "up" in the community?
I believe a week ban is 7 days off. I probably won't ever post anything on an A-EON web site again though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowcat View Post
Happy to be on the "light side of the Force". Happy New Year Matt !
Light side are we? Darkness shrouds Amiga land. Chaos and discord rules. Hope there yet is but clouded the future remains.
matthey is offline  
Old 06 January 2016, 21:56   #60
Knoeki
Princess Knoeki

Knoeki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 27
Posts: 38
Send a message via Skype™ to Knoeki
Unless Cloanto/Hyperion/Whomever plan to retroactively destroy any and all 68k Amiga hardware, I don't see the future being that bleak, really (:
Knoeki is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My old source code gemanix Coders. General 36 09 July 2017 14:33
C Code without official includes redblade Coders. Language 3 20 March 2013 15:05
How about a Kickstarter to open source AmigaOS classic? wXR Amiga scene 2 22 February 2013 10:50
Source Code camelord support.Games 2 06 August 2010 18:45
Source Code Thalion project.WinUAE - Kaillera 3 28 April 2006 10:55

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.38660 seconds with 11 queries