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Old 02 January 2016, 00:59   #1
turrican3
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double copper colours

Hi Toni,
I know that you will burn me for some reason.
But could it be possible to double the number of colours in a rainbow effects done by the copper with winuae ????
winuae could calculate an extra colour in the mid-range between 2 colours in the rainbow ???
Off-course it isn't possible if the colour change every lines.
1. Could it be possible
2. Do you think that could be a good idea ? (I think i have the answer on this one )
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Old 05 January 2016, 14:42   #2
Toni Wilen
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You asked for it!

1) Everything is possible.
2) No. Copper color changes are not just used for rainbows.
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Old 06 January 2016, 05:51   #3
turrican3
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thanks for the answer,
i knew that the copper isn't used just for the rainbows.
do you think that a filter could double the colours on the screen ?? In a way or an other ?? It sounds crazy, i know. I really think that it's not possible to make it with a good result.But perhaps you could find a way that i couldn't even imagine.
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Old 06 January 2016, 07:35   #4
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One question.... Why?
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Old 06 January 2016, 11:23   #5
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A. He likes lots of colours

B. He thinks Toni is bored.

C. He's insane...

I know which one I'm going for....
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Old 06 January 2016, 12:15   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turrican3 View Post
thanks for the answer,
i knew that the copper isn't used just for the rainbows.
do you think that a filter could double the colours on the screen ?? In a way or an other ?? It sounds crazy, i know. I really think that it's not possible to make it with a good result.But perhaps you could find a way that i couldn't even imagine.

Knock yourself out buddy, download the winuae source and add all the crazy $hit you want. Get back to us when you have it working.
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Old 06 January 2016, 12:21   #7
Toni Wilen
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Lores + no doubling (so that emulation does not create 1x2 or 2x2 pixel blocks with same color) and then some filter/shader upscale.

Pixel doubling is in very low level part of emulation core, it is not that simple, especially if you don't want slower performance in "normal" modes.
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Old 18 January 2016, 01:53   #8
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Originally Posted by Mclane View Post
A. He likes lots of colours

B. He thinks Toni is bored.

C. He's insane...

I know which one I'm going for....
It looks like you are strongly implying that you favour option C so I think it is worth explaining why that is definitely the worst possible answer. Hopefully that will also help you realize how mean to Turrican3 this assumption of yours actually is.

All emulators have different priorities and this is true also of their user bases.

These priorities are reflected in the kind of features that the users of these emulators want: some want 100% original experience with CRT perfect pixel shaders, etc. and others just want to "play the damn games".

Oftentimes, when the goal is only to play old games, it is also sensible to want to "up" the audio and video quality of the game, taking advantage of the fact that the machine running the emulator is vastly more powerful than the original machine (in the case of the A500 and MegaDrive, more than one thousand times, easily).

Many emulators offer features design to enhance the graphics or audio of original games:
- Playstation games and N64 games which use polygons can be rendered with 1080p (and more) resolutions instead of the usual 320x240 ones.
- Textures and palettes can be hot-swapped with higher resolution and quality ones so that graphics do not look super blurry and/or blocky.
- Filters can be applied to pure 2D renders to artificially smoothen the graphics while displaying at much higher resolution.
- and so on, and so on, the list is pretty long

Not everyone like these effects but there is definitely a demand for them because most popular emulators offer them to one degree or another. UAE also falls in this category: stretched modes with bilinear filtering are one such feature for example.

What Turrican3 asks, is essentially the same thing for the Amiga: artificially increase the palette bit-ness and smoothen copper-driven gradients so as to enhance the perceived quality of Amiga emulated graphics.

This is a very sensible request which I think has a lot of merit.

Its only problem is that - as Toni mentioned - it is technically difficult to implement for two reasons:

1- not every colour change by the Copper participates in a background gradient and it would be difficult to reliably analyze copper lists dynamically and determine which parts of them constitute background gradients and thus can be properly interpolated with high colour precision and which other parts should be simply left alone.

and 2-, how UAE's low level is currently designed does not necessarily allow this feature to be implemented efficiently (I have not verified this but I suspect that might be the case). After all, it was never designed with this kind of thing in mind.

As Toni said ("everything is possible"), both problems are fixable given enough time and effort, but this also means that this feature is necessarily prioritized down compared to other more important needs.

But this said, I am sure that this feature will find its way into UAE eventually.

Hope this helps.
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Old 18 January 2016, 19:47   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turrican3 View Post
But could it be possible to double the number of colours in a rainbow effects done by the copper with winuae ????
winuae could calculate an extra colour in the mid-range between 2 colours in the rainbow ???
Off-course it isn't possible if the colour change every lines.
Turrican3, WinUAE is an emulator and the whole point of emulators (in this context) is to simulate one computer on another computer. Some purists who always prefer the real hardware over emulators are always bashing the latter for not being truly accurate to the original hardware. The last thing we want to do is to give these people a reason to hate emulators more.

The point is, the emulator HAS to do exactly (or as near as possible) what the original hardware does, within the confines of the host computer that's simulating it, or it's not true emulation.

Yes, a filter may be possible, but why not appreciate the actual as-accurate-as-possible graphics (or sound) for their limitations as well as their innovations and uniqueness?
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Old 18 January 2016, 20:11   #10
turrican3
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I just asked this like that... I have no problem with the actual amiga copper.
Keep the amiga like it was designed is great but if it was possible easily, why not? there is no obligation to use winuae non essential feature and everybody is happy.
@Mclane : answer C
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Old 18 January 2016, 21:07   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turrican3 View Post
I just asked this like that... I have no problem with the actual amiga copper.
Keep the amiga like it was designed is great but if it was possible easily, why not? there is no obligation to use winuae non essential feature and everybody is happy.
@Mclane : answer C
A filter is the answer, technically, but as Toni and ReadOnlyCat said, it would be difficult to implement for what you require.
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Old 19 January 2016, 06:58   #12
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Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
Turrican3, WinUAE is an emulator and the whole point of emulators (in this context) is to simulate one computer on another computer. Some purists who always prefer the real hardware over emulators are always bashing the latter for not being truly accurate to the original hardware. The last thing we want to do is to give these people a reason to hate emulators more.
Why should anyone care about what close minded people think?
If they can only conceive a single use case for an emulator that is their problem, not ours. No one forces them to use any feature they disapprove of for whichever irrational reason (where is the holy text proclaiming emulation should only do X or Y already? )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
The point is, the emulator HAS to do exactly (or as near as possible) what the original hardware does, within the confines of the host computer that's simulating it, or it's not true emulation.
As I said, this is a completely arbitrary constraint. And moreover who is to decide what a particular emulator doctrine should be? Its users? An assembly of loyal followers versed in the holy scriptures of Emulatryx the Great?

Or simply the convergence of the desires of its author and its user base?
Seems like a simpler and more flexible attitude than claiming that there is only one true path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
Yes, a filter may be possible, but why not appreciate the actual as-accurate-as-possible graphics (or sound) for their limitations as well as their innovations and uniqueness?
Just because! Why would anyone need a reason?
Also, nothing prevents one from enjoying both aspects. Why restrain the options when having choice hurts no one?

Also, UAE already has plenty of non-true-emulation-features-according-to-the-ten-holy-commandments-of-emulation.
Non cycle accurate? Check.
Bilinear filtering? Check.
No scanline or CRT shader? Check.
Non realistic hardware combinations? Check.
Hard disk files? Check.
And I could go on.

Yup, smooth copper gradients are a tough one and not a priority but the idea is as valid as bilinear filtering.
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Old 19 January 2016, 11:20   #13
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Also, UAE already has plenty of non-true-emulation-features-according-to-the-ten-holy-commandments-of-emulation.
You have an excellent point there, ReadOnlyCat. Other emulators I've used also have similar options, like Altirra, WinVICE and Steem.
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