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Old 09 June 2016, 20:12   #121
Anubis
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Agree...

My current Amiga case (with RPi 3 inside) costed about the same as just shipping for this case... Phunny...



And lovely color, isn't it??
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Old 09 June 2016, 20:21   #122
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With the result of this campaign, I wouldn't.
It's really sad, but I don't think this would work out. The previous Amiga case campaign has clearly taken all possible interested parties, even though this new case is possibly better.

I like his design MUCH better than just new A1200 cases from old molds, but clearly in order to bring this to market it's got to be more PC centered. That is where the mass market will always be.
I think one of the biggest flaws in the retro community is this pathological need to keep everything "original'. That's all bu impossible with keyboards. We've come a long way in 20 years. We have a standard for keyboard interfacing that simple didn't exists 20 to 30 years ago.
If we want to move into the future, we have to know what to let go, and what to keep.
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Old 09 June 2016, 20:25   #123
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I think this "effort" suffered from a LACK of "effort". The initial video was nice, but updates and pushes after launch were minimal. You need to SELL this to your audience and the people behind this Kickstarter did not do that. You can't expect your fanbase to do all the work for you.
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Old 09 June 2016, 20:36   #124
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Although maybe there's some truth to that matter, that there was some "marketing" lacking, I also think that this was too close to the other case campaign and, as commented before by many, this campaign has obviously been hurt by the other.

It would have been much better if these two forces joined to give us the ultimate Amiga case solution. But this is what happens in Amiga world all the time.
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Old 09 June 2016, 20:39   #125
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Although maybe there's some truth to that matter, that there was some "marketing" lacking, I also think that this was too close to the other case campaign and, as commented before by many, this campaign has obviously been hurt by the other.

It would have been much better if these two forces joined to give us the ultimate Amiga case solution. But this is what happens in Amiga world all the time.
Agreed.

I think the 2 camps did talk, but from what I understand Jens wanted to basically take over their effort instead of working with them - so it did obviously did not work out well.

I remember Jens talking badly about the other project before it was funded, seemingly trying to sabotage their effort. It almost looks as though that talk backfired.
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Old 09 June 2016, 21:09   #126
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I like his design MUCH better than just new A1200 cases from old molds.
Nope, there are no old moulds. The other case project is designed from scratch but in the same style as the old case (taking an awful lot of measurements to do it), but with more modern updates on the internals.

Don't worry though, the other project also failed the first time around - learn from the mistakes and give it another go when the reloaded etc (standalone vampire??) boards come around.

Last edited by Mr.Flibble; 09 June 2016 at 22:15.
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Old 09 June 2016, 21:29   #127
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Don't worry though, the other project also failed the first time around - learn from the mistakes and give it another go when the reloaded etc (standalone vampire??) boards come around.
At least the other project only came slightly short of succeeding the first time around. This one looks like it will fail miserably so I don't see a point either in relaunching it unless there's some major changes to it (or it turns out the Kickstarter fails to deliver for some reason).
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Old 09 June 2016, 22:13   #128
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Hi Guys,

I agree that my campaign has obviously been hurt by the other, and timing could have been better. I clearly made some mistakes here, but I surely learned from it. That doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort into my project and didn't reach out to the audience.

About joining forces : I considered that, but I chose not to. I had to make a decision and at that time it did not seem a wise thing to do. The different kind of approach compared to the other project was of big influence in my decision.

Some of you may think that the discussion between Jens and Lang backfired on my project. What you need to know about this is that I have nothing to do with that discussion. Like I said on other Amiga forums, every Amiga project should be appreciated . That doesn't mean an Amiga project shouldn't be discussed. Everybody is entitled to have an opinion.

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Old 09 June 2016, 22:34   #129
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That doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort into my project and didn't reach out to the audience.
Just my opinion here, but the other project had a lot more communication coming from them during the campaign. Part of that may have been generated by excitement in the community, but I think you could have done more to spark that excitement for your own campaign. Once people are talking about your project on the forums the product might sell itself, but until that happens someone has to work on getting that spark. I did not see a lot of discussion about your product on the forums or on Facebook.

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About joining forces : I considered that, but I chose not to. I had to make a decision and at that time it did not seem a wise thing to do. The different kind of approach compared to the other project was of big influence in my decision.
Understood, and I actually prefer your design I think. I did not back either project but would have probably backed yours if you were closer to your goal (I know, I know - if everyone thought that way no project would meet its goal).

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Some of you may think that the discussion between Jens and Lang backfired on my project. What you need to know about this is that I have nothing to do with that discussion.
Understood. He may not represent you but his discussion came off as though he had some kind of inside connection in my opinion. His condescending attitude seems to have turned off a lot of people in the community. It may not have affected your campaign, but the stuff he was saying did leave a bad taste in my mouth. It was good to see the guy who ran the other Kickstarter take the high road.

I really do like your product, and would love to buy one for the Amiga 1200 I just purchased (which has a horrible case). Have you looked at possible investors who might be willing to fund your project and resell your case?

I'm shocked that you could not generate the needed funds from perhaps Jens bundling with his Reloaded board, AmigaKit, etc. Any leftover product you might have to invest in yourself could surely be sold through eBay or an online store.

It's much easier for people to feel comfortable purchasing if the product is available and shipping NOW. And once a couple people purchase and start posting about it the sales momentum would grow (assuming, of course, that the product is good).

At 110 per case to fund 90,000 you would need to sell 819 of them. Are there 819 potential customers?

Last edited by Kremlar; 09 June 2016 at 23:38.
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Old 09 June 2016, 23:40   #130
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Just my opinion here, but the other project had a lot more communication coming from them during the campaign.
But most of it was irrelevant and usually a bit "annoying". I feel sad here because Schuimpy seems to have put a lot of effort in engineering this case, more than in the other Kickstarter which was more focused in making silly "special edition" cases and stuff to try to get more people in. And they did, so I guess it worked, but this campaign looked more "serious" to me. Which in turn meant Schuimpy wasn't here all the time and on Facebook and everywhere busting our balls about his cases. A commendable attitude but one that in this day and age can play against you.

The lack of discussion is again probably due to another case, very similar to this, having being recently funded, JUST funded (as mentioned before they failed the first time round and had to do it again and after all that struggle comes this case project).

I think there was barely a market for this type of product the first time around, a second time around is just not gonna happen. Most people who wanted new cases, got them from the first campaign, whether these cases are better nor not it does not matter, those people are not gonna get another case and that's the end of it. Everyone else does not need the case.

Another point I want to remark here is that this was in both cases an A1200 case. Perhaps Schuimpy, now that the Vampire 600 is such a prominent device, if you can take a similar approach to this case but make an A600 form factor case, now THAT would maybe stand on its own, and the Vampire could help it prop it up (a real product released now and with a bright future). I for one would definitely -love- to have a new case for my A600 since mine is all broken and hanging from one screw.
Then again as I said I believe the market for such a case would be very limited and I am not sure the demand would be enough to back this kinda project up. But at least it would NOT be the same product for the same users the other campaign covered.
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Old 10 June 2016, 00:43   #131
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But most of it was irrelevant and usually a bit "annoying". I feel sad here because Schuimpy seems to have put a lot of effort in engineering this case, more than in the other Kickstarter which was more focused in making silly "special edition" cases and stuff to try to get more people in. And they did, so I guess it worked, but this campaign looked more "serious" to me. Which in turn meant Schuimpy wasn't here all the time and on Facebook and everywhere busting our balls about his cases. A commendable attitude but one that in this day and age can play against you.
Right. However, despite what you say about the other campaign it was funded and this one was not - so perhaps the special editions and other things helped.

Quote:
The lack of discussion is again probably due to another case, very similar to this, having being recently funded, JUST funded (as mentioned before they failed the first time round and had to do it again and after all that struggle comes this case project).
Yes, but I bet if you took 100 people out of the active Amiga community and asked them the differences between this case and the other most would not know. Sometimes you need to beat things into peoples heads, and I think that's where this campaign failed. Perhaps if it was pushed/discussed more then more people would have recognized the differences and this one would have gotten more attention.

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I think there was barely a market for this type of product the first time around, a second time around is just not gonna happen. Most people who wanted new cases, got them from the first campaign, whether these cases are better nor not it does not matter, those people are not gonna get another case and that's the end of it. Everyone else does not need the case.
Agreed, but with Reloaded coming out the market will be bigger. People will not just let their old boards sit around.

Quote:
Another point I want to remark here is that this was in both cases an A1200 case. Perhaps Schuimpy, now that the Vampire 600 is such a prominent device, if you can take a similar approach to this case but make an A600 form factor case, now THAT would maybe stand on its own, and the Vampire could help it prop it up (a real product released now and with a bright future). I for one would definitely -love- to have a new case for my A600 since mine is all broken and hanging from one screw.
Then again as I said I believe the market for such a case would be very limited and I am not sure the demand would be enough to back this kinda project up. But at least it would NOT be the same product for the same users the other campaign covered.
Good point, but with the limited sales of the 600 I question whether that would be a good target market. Although I don't personally like the larger form factor, many people like the 500 and there sure are a lot of them out there with beat up cases. With the Vampire 500 right around the corner that might be a good target market.

However, often times in hobby markets like this people build what they want personally, not what they think will sell. Perhaps Schuimpy has no interest in any other form factor.
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Old 10 June 2016, 05:31   #132
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Right. However, despite what you say about the other campaign it was funded and this one was not - so perhaps the special editions and other things helped.
But that's exactly what I said! It obviously worked, and we ended up with the in my opinion poorer product

Quote:
Yes, but I bet if you took 100 people out of the active Amiga community and asked them the differences between this case and the other most would not know.
Because the differences are important but smaller. The end product, the big picture, is that both were A1200 form factor case replacements.
I personally appreciate that Schuimpy was not out there force feeding this into people and I don't see it as a "failure". We ended up unable to enjoy the fruit of his work, but that\s what the Amiga scene of today clearly deserves. Our loss. I see no fault in Schuimpy's actions. He did his best and when he needed our help we didn't give it to him. The failure is on us.

Quote:
Agreed, but with Reloaded coming out the market will be bigger. People will not just let their old boards sit around.
At this moment the reality of Reloaded being released remains to be discussed. I rather keep skeptical. We haven't heard of it in forever. I cannot, with the evidence at hand, assure that it will ever see the light of day. I cannot assure otherwise either.

Quote:
Good point, but with the limited sales of the 600 I question whether that would be a good target market.
There's tons of A600 out there and if you talk with the Vampire team they can tell you how many accelerators they have sold. The numbers are good I believe, but again, it's hard to tell in this hobbyist market, very hard.
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Old 10 June 2016, 10:04   #133
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First of all... As with everything else here in life, you can choose to see this as a failure or a learning experience. I always prefer the second option.
Now. .

As a backer of a €200 special edition case in Phil's campaign, here are my 2 cents.

*First if all, Phil's case is not just a clone of the original case. There are actual improvements compared to a case you'd get off eBay, and not just the "no yellowing" part. But actual adjustments to benefit ppl who like to mod their cases. Most of the stuff already fits in the space of the original 1200 case because it was designed to. But with Phil's case you get help with cutting holes, mounting stuff etc.
So this caters to both the purits and the common modders.

*Schumpy's case was always going to have a more nische audience. Exchangeable brackets and stuff seemed like a good idea but it mostly appealed to ppl using other hardware solutions than the actual 1200 mobo.

*As several others pointed out, Schumpy wasn't very active during the campaign. This can sometimes be interpreted as if he doesn't believe in the campaign himself, or doesn't really care that much. I'm sure thats NOT actually the case, but something to consider. Marketing psychology...

*Also the other thing mentioned.. to close after the first one was always going to be difficult. First one solved most of the problems for most of the people. Second one appealed to the nische minority.

*This is highly subjective, but to mee, the second cover with the keyboard holder looks... Well.. stupid.. and I imagine the result with a keyboard too look as "elegant" as a Megadrive with 32x and MegaCD add on. Some design choices should be left alone IMO :-)

*Creating new molds is not something anyone can do. Doing a 3d model in CAD showing off good ideas is a far cry from actually inspiring confidence about your ability to create actual physical products from metal molds.

*Still .. despite all of the above, I was going to back it BUT I was going to use it with the Reloaded mobo. Remember how Jens told us how much he preferred the "other" project over Phil's? So you'd think that once this "other" campaign started Jens would be here to tell us how well this is going to fit the Reloaded. What did we get instead? Complete "radio silence". I have no idea what the status of the Reloaded project is. For me personally, that settled it. I don't need another case if I don't have a mobo for it.

There you have it. Agree? Disagree?

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Old 10 June 2016, 10:17   #134
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wall of text
My sentiments exactly.

I'm also waiting for my case from the other campaign, and I don't need another one until the Reloaded board becomes available.

This case is a bit bigger as well, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that. I backed the other campaign because it was identical to my current A1200 case. For me that's the whole point, if it's not identical it wouldn't be an amiga.

And this is my personal opinion, not the absolute truth.
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Old 10 June 2016, 20:28   #135
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I disagree in saying that Schuimpy's case was aimed at a niche, you can disregard the "put PS2 keybaord on top" option because, I agree, I was not interested one bit in that (I would not be insulting and call it "stupid" in any moment though, you should mind how you talk), but the A1200 case had much better improvements than the funded case. I know the previous one wasn't a 1:1 copy and had improvements (however see the comment above where the user actually likes that the case is almost a 1:1 copy, so perhaps that's what people want)
Schuimpy's case however had even more and better improvements in my opinion, and it would have benefited us all if the two projects had agreed to work together, but we read now that this sadly didn't happen.
Things like brass enclosures for screws are VERY important and the funded case lacks them. Also the extra space helps a LOT! If you ARE into modding, Schuimpy's case would have been better for REAL A1200 users. As I said before I'm not even talking about the "emulation" case. This would have been a great case for existing A1200 motherboard owners, and if Reloaded ever happens, which as I said, at this point I highly doubt, it would have been great, too.

But yeah we're beating a dead horse here. Whoever got the funded case should be happy and nobody else will get a new case from this point on. That's how the story is. If the Reloaded ever happens, I don't know where people will get cases from, unless Indiviual Computers decides to fund Schuimpy's project.
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Old 10 June 2016, 21:40   #136
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(I would not be insulting and call it "stupid" in any moment though, you should mind how you talk)
First of all, I'm happy to hear that you want people to be polite in the forums. This is good news. We can surely agree on this one. :thumbs up:

The other thing: I really do mind how I talk. How about you read one more time what I wrote and particularly consider why I chose phrases such as "highly subjective", "in my opinion" and most of all "*looks* stupid" as opposed to " is stupid".

Aaaanyway, the second case *became* more nische the moment the first case kickstarter got funded (Figuratively speaking). Because he had to find "the other" users who didn't find the first case interesting enough but still would consider to buy a case. And per definition that would be those who aren't the mainstream users. The number of endorsers seem to confirm this.

Of course, sometimes it's all about the timing. Had Schiumpy beaten Phil and launched first, I'm sure things would have looked differently.
Still, I think this an opportunity to learn from and maybe one day try again.

And I too wonder what Jens plans. He could of course simply offer the Reloaded mobo "as is". As a spare part.. As long as he doesn't do something to deliberately sabotage compatibility with Phil's case then there should be at least 1000 new cases out there in a while, and any one owner could be interested in a new or maybe secondary mobo.




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Old 10 June 2016, 22:12   #137
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Has something happened to make people think that the Reloaded board might not ship? Have I missed something?
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Old 10 June 2016, 22:41   #138
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Has something happened to make people think that the Reloaded board might not ship? Have I missed something?
I can only speak for myself, but my understanding was that the Reloaded should have reached prototype stage by Q1 2016 at which point they would start taking binding preorders to check interest for the board.
I'm pretty certain the official Wiki page said this.
But that didn't happen, and I have not seen any official follow up or updated news.

This doesn't have to mean anything other than that its simply "late".
But you could say that it had a certain impact on Schiumpy's campaign as it was "officially" the case Jens would endorse and "pair up" with the Reloaded mobo.
So, personally, I found the silence and lack of official statements a bit strange.
It's also possible there has been unofficial news in the German forums but I don't hang around in those.
Time will probably tell, ey ? ;-)


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Old 10 June 2016, 22:42   #139
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Has something happened to make people think that the Reloaded board might not ship? Have I missed something?
I think it's the sound of crickets coming from Jens about the project that is giving everyone the impression that it's vaporware.
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Old 11 June 2016, 14:24   #140
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Hi Guys,

Thank you very much for your comments/idea's the last few days. Your are giving me very important information about the campaign, the (design/features of) the AMIGA CASE and my actions. I did make some mistakes, I see that now, but it is also good to hear from you I did good things. As a result it becomes easier, more clearly what to do after the campaign ends and prepare my next steps. For me it doesn't end after the campaign. I have a licence from Amiga Inc. and it would a shame not to do something with that. When I have news about my next steps, I will surely post them here. Suggestions are welcome thou and much appreciated. If you have any questions post them here. I'll try to answer them asap. Questions about the licence or about my contact with Jens wont be answered, as you may understand that's confidential.

Thanks again,

Kind Regards,

Schuimpy/Jarno
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