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Old 19 November 2015, 09:49   #21
meynaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Because it requires too much time and is too unreliable and I can almost guarantee it won't happen unless I have exactly same config and possibly similar hardware too (if it is timing related or some other memory corruption bug that depends on timing).
So in short you didn't try.
And i can't give you my old save state 'coz i deleted it.

But it doesn't take that much time. Just run it in the morning and forget it while you do something else (don't touch it even for regular verification, just wait).

It doesn't appear to depend on timing. Whether i do heavy duty stuff or not, does not matter.
It's also not as random as i suspected. Given enough time (something like 4-8 hours) it always happens.

You say you can almost guarantee it won't happen but you didn't verify it.
What if i say i can almost guarantee it does happen ?

Never forget that the best chance you have to fix it, is to actually reproduce it yourself. So please don't miss your chance and have a try.
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Old 19 November 2015, 10:27   #22
Toni Wilen
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I do debugging exactly how I want to do it. This is not paid support.
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Old 19 November 2015, 10:34   #23
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Sorry for my two cents to this discussion but i followed this thread since start. I don't understand where the problem is to give Toni what he is asking for. He is the WinUAE Coder and knows best how to track down a problem. You want it solved so help as much as you can or live whith the problem and stop complaining. Better be grateful to have Toni doing such good support for free!
Just wanted to say this.
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Old 19 November 2015, 10:41   #24
Toni Wilen
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The point is simple: this requires lots of time and during that time I can't do anything related because it would make debugging more difficult. It is waste of time for me.

I 100% require all the background information that is possible to get and statefile (and config file) is the best source for that.

I don't waste time for something that may not never happen. Everyone always says "just do this and that, it is easy to duplicate.". It has nearly always been wrong assumption!
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Old 19 November 2015, 21:45   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
I do debugging exactly how I want to do it. This is not paid support.
Then receive what you want and check by yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalion View Post
Sorry for my two cents to this discussion but i followed this thread since start. I don't understand where the problem is to give Toni what he is asking for. He is the WinUAE Coder and knows best how to track down a problem. You want it solved so help as much as you can or live whith the problem and stop complaining. Better be grateful to have Toni doing such good support for free!
Just wanted to say this.
No problem in giving Toni what he is asking for, apart that it takes a day and is useless to find the problem.
But, heck, here it is. I knew this would happen and i prepared it in the meanwhile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
The point is simple: this requires lots of time and during that time I can't do anything related because it would make debugging more difficult. It is waste of time for me.
Nothing prevents you from running some emulator and leave it running - as several instances can be running simultaneously, where is the problem ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
I 100% require all the background information that is possible to get and statefile (and config file) is the best source for that.
Ok here you go. State file, config file, log files.
But i'm still saying it's useless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
I don't waste time for something that may not never happen. Everyone always says "just do this and that, it is easy to duplicate.". It has nearly always been wrong assumption!
You can say it's a wrong assumption. That's possible. But don't say that without having it verified.
Remember that many people using your program are not coders so "everyone" is often proven wrong. But i usually know better. When i strongly disagree with someone else and a verification is made, i very rarely lose.

Btw. Is it normal that when choosing "A1200" in the quickstart model list (without having loaded any config file before), i get 512k chip / 512k slow / ecs instead of 2M chip / aga ?

Last edited by meynaf; 22 December 2015 at 13:56.
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Old 21 November 2015, 11:48   #26
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Ok, log shows some more clues, sprite corruption appears to be side-effect of something else..

Your log has multiple "DMAL error!? xxxx" lines. I assume you tried to duplicate the sprite problem and it finally happened after 7 tries and each test logged that DMAL error message. (It is "this should never happen" message)

Do you get that log message more easily and faster than sprite corruption? (Run in windowed mode with -log command line to see the log in real time).

Does it only happen if JIT is enabled? JIT changes behavior of "DMAL" Paula to Agnus/Alice DMA request reporting.

Unfortunately I haven't found any simple way (by force enabling/disabling AGA sprite feature bits) to duplicate the corrupted cursor without also breaking sprite positioning which probably means "DMAL" confusion may corrupt some variables. But on the other hand Amiga-side reset should re-initialize most of them.

One really annoying method to debug this would be to create full dump of the process (dozes or even hundreds of megabytes in size..) and load it in debugger and check all variables... But that can wait..

Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Btw. Is it normal that when choosing "A1200" in the quickstart model list (without having loaded any config file before), i get 512k chip / 512k slow / ecs instead of 2M chip / aga ?
Quickstart mode not active (no checkbox) and you didn't click "Set configuration" button?
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Old 21 November 2015, 12:01   #27
Toni Wilen
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Hmm.. Even that DMAL message seems to be a side-effect of something else because DMA request variable is non-zero only when audio or disk DMA is active.

It probably is DMAL state variable corruption caused by some "external" reason because in normal operation high bits of variable are never set but they are set in your log.

Try also without filter enabled just to be sure.
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Old 21 November 2015, 12:10   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Ok, log shows some more clues, sprite corruption appears to be side-effect of something else..
This was an awfully polite way to respond, Toni. If I were you'd I'd have just said "I told you so!"
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Old 21 November 2015, 16:20   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Ok, log shows some more clues, sprite corruption appears to be side-effect of something else..
Indeed it smells like a side-effect, like overwriting some other's memory or doing UMRs.

I tried playing with pointer prefs. Setting up an empty pointer (all area cleared) leaves me with vertical lines. Switching from lowres to hires gives half width and twice height.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Your log has multiple "DMAL error!? xxxx" lines. I assume you tried to duplicate the sprite problem and it finally happened after 7 tries and each test logged that DMAL error message. (It is "this should never happen" message)
I didn't try to duplicate the sprite problem 7 times, only once. Perhaps it occurs after a set amount of time...
If it is "should never happen", then why does it happen nevertheless ?


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Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Do you get that log message more easily and faster than sprite corruption? (Run in windowed mode with -log command line to see the log in real time).
Doesn't appear so. Simply sending the app to the task bar isn't enough to see the message. Apparently they just come up together after a while (possibly several times so we see 7 messages but only one corruption of course).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Does it only happen if JIT is enabled? JIT changes behavior of "DMAL" Paula to Agnus/Alice DMA request reporting.
Actually it's quite the opposite. It seems to happen faster with jit off (which looks odd to me because the cpu is actually idle in both cases).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Unfortunately I haven't found any simple way (by force enabling/disabling AGA sprite feature bits) to duplicate the corrupted cursor without also breaking sprite positioning which probably means "DMAL" confusion may corrupt some variables. But on the other hand Amiga-side reset should re-initialize most of them.
Amiga-side reset doesn't remove the problem, whether done by software or ctrl-A-A.
However, clicking "restart" from the ui does remove the problem (why didn't i think of doing that earlier, silly me ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
One really annoying method to debug this would be to create full dump of the process (dozes or even hundreds of megabytes in size..) and load it in debugger and check all variables... But that can wait..
You could do some kind of version with lots of debug outputs and send it to me. If it just outputs a selected set of variables and i do two versions, one before the problem, the other after, then the size can remain acceptable.
Just my suggestion of course, as you said you debug like you want


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Quickstart mode not active (no checkbox) and you didn't click "Set configuration" button?
Errmh... this is exact


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Hmm.. Even that DMAL message seems to be a side-effect of something else because DMA request variable is non-zero only when audio or disk DMA is active.

It probably is DMAL state variable corruption caused by some "external" reason because in normal operation high bits of variable are never set but they are set in your log.
Can "external reason" be "loss of directx surface", or "windows aggressively trimming the process" or something like that ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Try also without filter enabled just to be sure.
Current test running with filter set to none.
Note that changing the filter setting after getting the bug, doesn't restore normal operation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by esc View Post
This was an awfully polite way to respond, Toni. If I were you'd I'd have just said "I told you so!"
But he's had info from the log, not from the saved state
(And the bug is still far from being fixed, btw).
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Old 21 November 2015, 16:36   #30
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I know Toni likes to find the really awkward bugs but the arrogance and rudeness of this user would have me just saying "Not worth my time" and close the thread..

If ever someone could understand the irony of their own sig then its this guy..
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Old 21 November 2015, 16:49   #31
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I know Toni likes to find the really awkward bugs but the arrogance and rudeness of this user would have me just saying "Not worth my time" and close the thread..

If ever someone could understand the irony of their own sig then its this guy..
You see arrogance and rudeness where there is none.
I may like diplomacy skills but that's all.
My sig speaks about insults, btw. Try to find one here.
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Old 21 November 2015, 17:26   #32
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I know Toni likes to find the really awkward bugs but the arrogance and rudeness of this user would have me just saying "Not worth my time" and close the thread..

If ever someone could understand the irony of their own sig then its this guy..
You are right Mclane! I could not agree more
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Old 21 November 2015, 17:44   #33
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Saying "I lack diplomacy skills" is like saying "I don't have to be nice to people because I believe I am special." It wouldn't kill you to be kinder to people that are going out of their way to do something completely for free. If I were Toni I'd tell you to bugger off much earlier in this thread.
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Old 21 November 2015, 17:46   #34
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You are right Mclane! I could not agree more
And i couldn't disagree more. This leads nowhere. I just said i had a different opinion on something, that a saved state wouldn't help. And i got personal attacks in return

Quote:
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Saying "I lack diplomacy skills" is like saying "I don't have to be nice to people because I believe I am special." It wouldn't kill you to be kinder to people that are going out of their way to do something completely for free. If I were Toni I'd tell you to bugger off much earlier in this thread.
But you are not Toni and he understood there was no harm intended.
Being inadvertently rude is something, but I won't bow before people either, ok ?
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Old 21 November 2015, 19:12   #35
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Ok, how about you learn diplomacy, whether you agree or not you have shown arrogance and rudeness where its not needed and others have agreed, Toni works damn hard and constantly on Winuae, think about that before you use your pushy attitude.

Usually its the person who had the attitude is the last person to realise it.

Anyway, all this isn't wanted in threads and Toni will start to get annoyed...

You would like Toni when he's angry....(Hulk joke)

SO try and sort your wording out please...
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Old 21 November 2015, 19:15   #36
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My sig speaks about insults, btw. Try to find one here.
Its the tone that's insulting...

Just treat the boss a bit better please..Its good you want a bug fixed as we all would agree that its helpful for the emulator but think a bit before you type...
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Old 21 November 2015, 20:17   #37
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Rereading the whole thread, i see that you were more rude with me than me with Toni. I treat him like everyone else, he's nothing special to me - not the boss, not a god.
About me, I did enough game ports to Amiga, all for free, to deserve some respect as well - just saying that i have enough knowledge to argue even against Toni. It may sound like arrogance - but is not. And there is always some amount of rudeness when disagreeing with someone...

Back on topic, it seems that disabling the filter either removes the problem or delays it, as I didn't get it after a few hours.
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Old 22 November 2015, 10:49   #38
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Ah, you are the guy who did the ST ports to the Amiga, you do indeed have not just my respect but from all of us, thank you.

(as for me being rude to Toni, none of us would dare do that...He would chuck his crystal ball at us..)

And yes, lets get back on topic.
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Old 22 November 2015, 18:36   #39
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Didn't seen this bug report before, i can say i also often have this problem, in WinUAE on Windows or also in FS-UAE on Linux. And it happens to me when not RTG. But i never found a reproducible scenario. Things what i'm sure like Meynaf reported it is that it needs to be windowed, to wait for long time after unfocus (and maybe reduced) the window. If i have more clues i could help more...
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Old 22 November 2015, 20:52   #40
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Happy to know i'm not alone

I made a new test today without the filter. The bug didn't occur even after many hours so it appears it's really linked with that.
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