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Old 07 November 2015, 15:56   #121
iggybeans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
I am not too sure what is the intended end point of these speculative discussions but aren't you tackling the problem in reverse?

The Amiga was special because its features made it special.
The harmonious mix of hardware and software innovation was the key to both its ease of use and power.

It does not matter that it had a 68k, a blitter, and stuff. What mattered for users is what these kittens enabled. What mattered is that users got their jobs done, be it gaming, or else.

If you want to make an Amiga like modern computer, start with the features you want in, start with the job you want it to accomplish with the computer, not the components. And that's determined by software these days, not hardware.

Given how obsolete AmigaOS is (in terms of users-job to be done), frankly, the hardware should be the least of our concerns.

Also I should mention that people are moving away from home computers and using more and more their mobile devices for computing tasks. Failing to address that is guaranteed death if the goal is a mainstream computer (if the goal is a niche market, then it's fine).

Interesting point.
It IS software that needs more focus, the OS' AND the available applications.
And to attract more developers for the latter, we need OS AND hardware evolution, not de-evolution.
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Old 07 November 2015, 17:42   #122
eXeler0
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Originally Posted by iggybeans View Post
Interesting point.
It IS software that needs more focus, the OS' AND the available applications.
And to attract more developers for the latter, we need OS AND hardware evolution, not de-evolution.
Theres too much "politics" involved to actually make this happen... but...
-The topic has been mentioned a zillion times before but, -it would be interesting to just for once, compare the numbers.
The cost of building new (but already obsolete yet very costly) hardware and the cost of porting OS4 to ARM and reach potentially millions of Raspberry Pi or hacked phone hardware or similar.
Porting the existing software beyond the OS would be a giant task but possibly not even worth it because it would be easier to port tons of other useful software that already exists for ARM architecture.
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Old 07 November 2015, 18:00   #123
OlafSch
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Originally Posted by trixster View Post
To quote Toni Wilen from 04 Dec 14:

".....no one is going to use it without support driver software. New stuff that can be only used by direct hardware access and can't be used (and developed) with any existing hardware: Why would anyone use it?

It seems every FPGA implementation with (planned) extensions will have same problem: who does the software? (and how? it is practically impossible to extend existing graphics.library stuff) No one is going to do it if it is not going to be standard. Single standard implementation + Amiga? Not going to happen!"

Ok, he wasn't talking directly about some of the stuff discussed in this thread, but I think it's a valid point. Who will use all these great ideas? There's no new software - no new games, no new productivity software in development to tempt people back to a platform which in everyone's eyes disappeared in the 90s. The Amiga name is not enough. All my mates who owned amigas in the past have no knowledge of anything post workbench 3.0. AmigaOS 4, ppc, fpga; it's all stuff that just exists in the head of a bunch of us retro enthusiasts. A bigger audience to justify development cost and time is not going to come back. No one is going to spend hundreds of thousands delevoping 3D cores for a machine which has nothing to run on it!
no it is not...

http://aros.sourceforge.net/document...cs-library.php
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Old 07 November 2015, 18:20   #124
Thorham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
I am not too sure what is the intended end point of these speculative discussions
People like to talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
The Amiga was special because its features made it special. The harmonious mix of hardware and software innovation was the key to both its ease of use and power.
Indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
Given how obsolete AmigaOS is (in terms of users-job to be done), frankly, the hardware should be the least of our concerns.
Indeed again.
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Old 07 November 2015, 18:40   #125
iggybeans
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
Theres too much "politics" involved to actually make this happen... but...
-The topic has been mentioned a zillion times before but, -it would be interesting to just for once, compare the numbers.
The cost of building new (but already obsolete yet very costly) hardware and the cost of porting OS4 to ARM and reach potentially millions of Raspberry Pi or hacked phone hardware or similar.
Porting the existing software beyond the OS would be a giant task but possibly not even worth it because it would be easier to port tons of other useful software that already exists for ARM architecture.
An ARM port would make a lot of sense.
Lots of compact hardware that is very power efficient and more than powerful enough.
Before the ISA change for MorphOS was announced, I was pushing for a shift to ARM.

After all, X64 is only dominant in desktops (with a smaller lead in laptops), it doesn't have much of a hold on tablets or other portable devices.

AND ARM is still RISC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
Given how obsolete AmigaOS is (in terms of users-job to be done), frankly, the hardware should be the least of our concerns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Indeed again.
Except that it is the hardware that now limits software capabilities.
Even Thorham is willing to admit that improvements can be made (in the hardware).

Where we differ is that I am not that obsessed with legacy register compatibility.

A few quick questions.

Who owns Amiga OS 3.5 and 3.9?
Because 4.1 borrows from those, but the license Hyperion owns specifically only mentions 3.1.
And that license is a bit questionable as I am not sure there is proof that Amiga Inc. was ever anything more than a licensee.

So, if legacy compatible hardware, with improvements, can be produced that is a LOT more powerful, why worry about an OS4 port to 68K?
Why not just free yourselves and use AROS68K?

Last edited by iggybeans; 07 November 2015 at 18:55.
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Old 07 November 2015, 22:44   #126
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I don't know where to post this, but you should watch it:

[ Show youtube player ]

It was at AmiWest and they talk about [ Show youtube player ] but also about A-Eon Enhancer software and [ Show youtube player ] and ... I'm still watching it...

Last edited by Retrofan; 07 November 2015 at 22:53.
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Old 08 November 2015, 00:58   #127
eXeler0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrofan View Post
I don't know where to post this, but you should watch it:

[ Show youtube player ]

It was at AmiWest and they talk about [ Show youtube player ] but also about A-Eon Enhancer software and [ Show youtube player ] and ... I'm still watching it...
Lol, I love this quote:
[ Show youtube player ]

"We don't have a time limit.. other than death.."
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Old 08 November 2015, 01:56   #128
wawa
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
Lol, I love this quote:
[ Show youtube player ]

"We don't have a time limit.. other than death.."
isnt that bs, all he tells?
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Old 08 November 2015, 12:24   #129
OlafSch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iggybeans View Post
An ARM port would make a lot of sense.
Lots of compact hardware that is very power efficient and more than powerful enough.
Before the ISA change for MorphOS was announced, I was pushing for a shift to ARM.

After all, X64 is only dominant in desktops (with a smaller lead in laptops), it doesn't have much of a hold on tablets or other portable devices.

AND ARM is still RISC.





Except that it is the hardware that now limits software capabilities.
Even Thorham is willing to admit that improvements can be made (in the hardware).

Where we differ is that I am not that obsessed with legacy register compatibility.

A few quick questions.

Who owns Amiga OS 3.5 and 3.9?
Because 4.1 borrows from those, but the license Hyperion owns specifically only mentions 3.1.
And that license is a bit questionable as I am not sure there is proof that Amiga Inc. was ever anything more than a licensee.

So, if legacy compatible hardware, with improvements, can be produced that is a LOT more powerful, why worry about an OS4 port to 68K?
Why not just free yourselves and use AROS68K?
3.5 and 3.9 is owned by H&P and they never gave away the rights. Hyperion partly only licensed the same components from the same developers as H&P.

Regarding Aros 68k I do not know why people are not helping more. Admittedly 3.X and the other originial versions are unbeatable when running on the old slow hardware with its limited resources. There Aros 68k cannot compete (it will never really work on a unexpanded A500 as example). But it is a good option for expanded hardware and future FPGA based systems.
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