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Old 21 September 2015, 05:56   #201
ReadOnlyCat
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Originally Posted by ppcamiga1 View Post
It is simple. GCC is best c compiler avaible for Amiga.
If 68k is to sloow for code compiled by gcc, 68k should be replaced by faster cpu.
Classic Amiga really need better procesor than 68k.
This procesor should be bigendian beacuse all old software for amiga is bigendian,
PPC is of course ideal choice for classic Amiga, but other like mips, sparc are also welcome.
If you want faster CPUs then the choice is between x64 and ARM (which is slowly but very steadily catching up), everything else is essentially dead or on its way to microprocessors heaven.

Amiga-s were fast in their time but their time is over, we should appreciate them for what they were, not what they could have been. I understand how technically thrilling FPGAs and stuff can be but these chimeras will never be Amiga-s, they can only be Amiga-inspired.

I think they cannot revive external interest for this wonderful machine, only internal pre-existing interest. And if there is ever a market again for Amiga games in my opinion it will be for the stock kittens because of their historical significance.
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Old 21 September 2015, 11:24   #202
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Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
If you want faster CPUs then the choice is between x64 and ARM (which is slowly but very steadily catching up), everything else is essentially dead or on its way to microprocessors heaven.

Amiga-s were fast in their time but their time is over, we should appreciate them for what they were, not what they could have been. I understand how technically thrilling FPGAs and stuff can be but these chimeras will never be Amiga-s, they can only be Amiga-inspired.

I think they cannot revive external interest for this wonderful machine, only internal pre-existing interest. And if there is ever a market again for Amiga games in my opinion it will be for the stock kittens because of their historical significance.
I do not agree regarding FPGA. They can at least come as near to amiga as possible, you can not only integrate components like processor but also whole upgraded chipsets and offer inexpensive access to modern features. And when you add them to a A500 or A600 (or any other model) you have both the feeling you are comforted to and modern features. It is the best option for a future for our platform. Of course it will not beat standard hardware but that is not necessary for our purposes. Regarding external interest I am not as pessimistic. Example is Raspberry, a pure fun platform. Of course it is cheaper than FPGA based solutions will be but it shows that there is interest for "toy" platforms even today.
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Old 21 September 2015, 11:37   #203
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I agree with OlafSch about the FPGAs. If I could get a 200 MHz 060 clone for the price of a mid-range FPGA it would be a bargain.
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Old 21 September 2015, 18:10   #204
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- Frameworks, not engines.
I think Sephnroth is on to something here. Something like SDL would probably find an audience. Not SDL proper, since we already know that it has a long way to go before reaching acceptable performance, but something offering the basic services of setting up screens, blitting, scrolling, sprites and reading input from keyboard and joysticks.

It doesn't have to look and feel like SDL, since no programmer that can handle C would have any trouble reading a description of a more Amiga-oriented API with the right features. SDL itself is useful for ports, but I think that what we're looking for in this thread is not slow ports of games you can play on a PC or Mac, but new Amiga games.

With luck, this kind of "slim SDL" could even be adapted for other platforms.
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Old 21 September 2015, 18:12   #205
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apparently, you can write your own exporters... if you can write importers as well, it could be very useful to me. The built-in formats all seem to be unnecessary hefty text formats though, what's wrong with just a byte stream for this kind of application i don't know.
I don't see why the particular export format must be the implementation format. My own level editor exports ASCII text, which is fine because you can check and alter levels in a text editor. Converting it to a byte stream is a question of ten lines of ARexx.
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Old 21 September 2015, 20:18   #206
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I agree with OlafSch about the FPGAs. If I could get a 200 MHz 060 clone for the price of a mid-range FPGA it would be a bargain.
It would be a bargain, a great technical toy, and fun to experiment with. But not an Amiga.
When the processor is so fast that it essentially uses only Denise as an outdated frame buffer what is the point of calling it an Amiga?

An Amiga is a carefully crafted set of finely matched custom chips and 68k processors, built by Commodore while they lasted (and the 1200 almost does not fit this definition ironically, nor the A4000). Anything else which modifies this balance would be better off just starting from scratch rather than carry the burden of emulating/replicating custom chips which are completely outmatched by the CPU.

I cannot see a market for this kind of hardware that would attract external people since they have much better modern toys to play with. I could be completely wrong and that would not be the first time but people who come to other retro machines (Genesis, SuperNES, etc.) see no interest in making them faster, they want the original experience made comfortable by proper network/storage/input expansions and that's it.

This said, I do agree that FPGAs are cool and I would not want to discourage anyone from building any Amiga-inspired stuff with them but from a software market point of view I fail to see how they do anything but fragment the market.
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Old 22 September 2015, 00:22   #207
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Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
It would be a bargain, a great technical toy, and fun to experiment with. But not an Amiga.
When the processor is so fast that it essentially uses only Denise as an outdated frame buffer what is the point of calling it an Amiga?

An Amiga is a carefully crafted set of finely matched custom chips and 68k processors, built by Commodore while they lasted (and the 1200 almost does not fit this definition ironically, nor the A4000). Anything else which modifies this balance would be better off just starting from scratch rather than carry the burden of emulating/replicating custom chips which are completely outmatched by the CPU.

I cannot see a market for this kind of hardware that would attract external people since they have much better modern toys to play with. I could be completely wrong and that would not be the first time but people who come to other retro machines (Genesis, SuperNES, etc.) see no interest in making them faster, they want the original experience made comfortable by proper network/storage/input expansions and that's it.

This said, I do agree that FPGAs are cool and I would not want to discourage anyone from building any Amiga-inspired stuff with them but from a software market point of view I fail to see how they do anything but fragment the market.
No one can say if your opinion is right or wrong, but I would claim that there is a difference between "generic modern toys" and upgrading an old Amiga with FPGA magic. As long as my Amiga(s) still run the old stuff and the box and keyboard are my old familiar "friends" from the 80s or 90s then adding faster CPUs and better (but compatible) graphics wont ruin it for me..
My PC is about 1000 times faster than a 060, I have a Phone with quad core 2GHz CPU, I have Raspberry Pie 2, even iPad and other "modern toys", but none of them generates any particular feelings like the Amiga does. They are just faceless tools that I use to get a particular job done.

And like I've said in other threads, the fascination with the Apollo-core FPGA project in particular is to eventually get an Amiga that "might have" been if Commodore survived for a couple more years..
Its like we are cheating death here
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Old 22 September 2015, 02:51   #208
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I too would be happy with an Apollo card attached to my Amiga. It would not ruin the fun.
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Old 22 September 2015, 03:31   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
It would be a bargain, a great technical toy, and fun to experiment with. But not an Amiga.
When the processor is so fast that it essentially uses only Denise as an outdated frame buffer what is the point of calling it an Amiga?

An Amiga is a carefully crafted set of finely matched custom chips and 68k processors, built by Commodore while they lasted (and the 1200 almost does not fit this definition ironically, nor the A4000). Anything else which modifies this balance would be better off just starting from scratch rather than carry the burden of emulating/replicating custom chips which are completely outmatched by the CPU.
The new FPGA hardware would be different but I believe the spirit of the Amiga can be kept. C= failed to upgrade the custom chips adequately with the CPU which you admit. Custom FPGA hardware can rebalance the equation by speeding up the hardware and increasing bandwidths where compatibility can be maintained. If the end result is fast, responsive, compatible and minimal like the original Amiga, then what is not Amiga?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
I cannot see a market for this kind of hardware that would attract external people since they have much better modern toys to play with. I could be completely wrong and that would not be the first time but people who come to other retro machines (Genesis, SuperNES, etc.) see no interest in making them faster, they want the original experience made comfortable by proper network/storage/input expansions and that's it.
The biggest appeal of FPGA hardware is to existing Amiga users and new users would be very difficult to attract. However, there are ex-Amiga users who would be interested if the hardware was good and cheap. Some of them could come back. The Natami brought in ex-Amiga and hobbyist interest. The Natami MX bringup thread has 729k reads. Some people would say there are only a few thousand active Amiga classic users yet how many people do you think read that one Natami thread with no advertising?

http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1&note=33366
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