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Old 18 August 2015, 16:15   #21
Akira
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Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
The fact that I and Akira criticize some european styles does not mean we are throwing the baby with the bath water and reject all of them.
Exactly. I am being objective here and putting aside my love for the Amiga.
Most of the examples given were not originated on the Amiga or are just clones of other stuff (Sensi Soccer wasn't revolutionary but you could say Kick Off 2 was and that's not an Amiga-originated game). Simon the Sorcerer is just another graphic adventure and also not originated on the Amiga. You get my point.

The only two super original games I can think of that were Amiga generated are Lemmings and Mindwalker. There are some more but I have to think long and hard about it, and that second one was really early. Was the Amiga revolutionary when it came out? Yes. But by 1991 it was not anymore, it was starting to drift behind other hardware, and Commodore was ruining it and, well, that's another whole topic.

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It feels to me that Akira did not mean to make such a broad generalization but rather tried to paint a general feeling given by many (not all) European games of the 80-90s.
You only have to go and read any Amiga games magazine post 1990 and see how COMPARISONS WITH CONSOLES/PCs WERE MADE ALL THE TIME! I am not making this up. The market needed to veer that way to keep competitive and it never really managed for many reasons. "Console style" meant the usually Japanese approach at making games, and European developers tried for years, in my opinion without really succeeding ever, to emulate that style. They were really focused on the technicalities of how games looked and sounded like, but never on how they played. We got Amiga games that looked and sounded just like, or in many cases EVEN BETTER than its console counterparts, but the games were just not feeling the same.

It's a very interesting platform in that most of the production for it came from Europe. This makes it very particular. There are almost no American games and sadly no Japanese games.
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Old 18 August 2015, 17:38   #22
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We got Amiga games that looked and sounded just like, or in many cases EVEN BETTER than its console counterparts, but the games were just not feeling the same.
My major bug-bear about Amiga gaming is really the sound effects/music issue, while the machines sound great imho (stereo issues aside), having to choose between them in many otherwise quality games, and the single button controls/up to jump is really off-putting and feels like a step backwards if you're used to consoles.

Also: Too many platformers pretending to be sonic, and always looking like poor efforts in comparison, because well, compare the amount of staff and budget of sonic team to the people who worked on super frog, ruffian etc. I always think that Euro games had less staff, budget and testing, whether on Amiga or whatever... overall I think the Amiga probably had way less budget and staff for just about any game compared to a console game.
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Old 18 August 2015, 17:53   #23
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Also: Too many platformers pretending to be sonic, and always looking like poor efforts in comparison, because well, compare the amount of staff and budget of sonic team to the people who worked on super frog, ruffian etc. I always think that Euro games had less staff, budget and testing, whether on Amiga or whatever... overall I think the Amiga probably had way less budget and staff for just about any game compared to a console game.
That's another very good point.
European games usually were made by a very small group of people. Japanese game teams were gigantic. You have people working on very specific things, whereas European counterparts probably had to be kind of a jack of all trades doing more than one thing at once.
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Old 18 August 2015, 18:19   #24
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exactly, so you have talented programmers & artists working as game designers and 25 years later Joe (quite reasonably) can't instinctively work out the power-up shop system in Disposable Hero, or work out why pressing the fire button generates no audio feedback.
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Old 18 August 2015, 18:43   #25
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I can't blame "Joe" really. He is used to something else.
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Old 18 August 2015, 18:50   #26
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I don't blame Joe at all
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Old 18 August 2015, 19:49   #27
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How is that a true statement when all that happened back then was that European developers were just trying to copy the games they saw on the consoles to try to keep competitive?

Hey, was not only the professional devs: remember that at the time was easy that a US or japanese game was an "exclusive" for a certain console or computer, so us wannabes were seeing this nice stuff and wondered why the hell no-one on our platform were doing games that way, (not only as playability but also as effects, sounds, color palette, etc.) At least for me Amiga was meant to be the Ultimate Game machine capable of almost everything so NOT having some kind of game/graphic style or effect on it was almost personal!
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Old 18 August 2015, 21:01   #28
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...and the single button controls/up to jump is really off-putting and feels like a step backwards if you're used to consoles.
Little-known fact: early design documents for Mario show that the devs originally planned to use up for jump.
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Old 18 August 2015, 23:37   #29
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Little-known fact: early design documents for Mario show that the devs originally planned to use up for jump.
They obviously learned better and never used it. The point being: investing time and effort in game design pays off probably more than in tech design for games.
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Old 19 August 2015, 05:39   #30
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The review wasn't too far from the mark. My only real qualms are the fact they seem to see not cloning Japanese games as a detriment. If it doesn't conform with what they know they seem to be a little dismissive. A person needs to play a game for what it is, not judge it on what has come before.

Glad to see someone cut down Superfrog though. Most overrated platformer ever. Even so there was a bit of a "love to hate it" vibe. Its quite sterile, but hardly looks 8bit as suggested.

All in all though a reasonable attempt at being neutral by a few guys who clearly have a bias, and perhaps limited exposure to things a little different to the mainstream while growing up (hence the attitude that things are wrong rather than just different when it doesn't conform to Japanese consoles).
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Old 19 August 2015, 06:19   #31
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Glad to see someone cut down Superfrog though. Most overrated platformer ever.
Same thought. Superfrog is garbage.
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Old 19 August 2015, 10:19   #32
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Same thought. Superfrog is garbage.
Been saying the same thing for years, it's an embarrassment when people try to put it next to Mario or Sonic games.
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Old 19 August 2015, 21:16   #33
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Same thought. Superfrog is garbage.
Oh come on, what's not to like? It's got it all; getting lost in the maze-like, never-ending levels, collecting coins and re-tracing your steps a hundred times to find the last hidden one to open the exit, one-armed bandit gambling machines to delay your return to the gaming action, which make you appreciate the coin collecting even more.
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Old 19 August 2015, 21:48   #34
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Oh come on, what's not to like?
Shit controls
Poor gameplay
Disproportionate size of things/speed at what it all moves
Poor map design converting it into a lottery for the coins you need
Repetitive gameplay
Basically the idea of "grab all this before exit is open"has always been absolute shit.
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re-tracing your steps a hundred times to find the last hidden one to open the exit
It's not hidden. The level was poorly designed. You just described my idea of a very poor afternoon spent wasting time on this pile of turd.
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Old 19 August 2015, 21:57   #35
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Did you leave your sarcasm detector in the workshop for repair?
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Old 20 August 2015, 00:39   #36
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Did you leave your sarcasm detector in the workshop for repair?
Nope, it just doesn't work well in zealot-infested Amiga land!

Sorry
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Old 20 August 2015, 00:49   #37
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It's OK, I forgive you; religion, politics and Amiga games are always going to be volatile topics for debate!
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Old 20 August 2015, 00:53   #38
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It's OK, I forgive you; religion, politics and Amiga games are always going to be volatile topics for debate!
I agree, with sadness in my heart
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