English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 24 July 2015, 10:03   #1
guybrush
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 40
Why can't we have a computer like Amiga?

Beside the love and the passion that the community have; I would like to see things from a different perspective:

Today, my multi core i5 with a GTX that has more MFLOPS than a battery of flying saucers. The AmigaOS was running on 14 Mhz processor, with 2 MB of ram and a bus at 33 Mhz I believe.

Beside the fact that it was actually a multi-core computer (the CPU was just driving the 3 custom chips); how advanced was the Amiga design, to see nowadays computers with GHz and GB of ram, having troubles to run even simple OS like linux?

I have got a Raspberry pi, since it is cheap and is a great retro machine; that thing has 4 core and 1 Ghz processor I believe, with a GPU integrated and 1 Gb of ram? That's 100 times an Amiga, but when you run even the simplest version of Linux, with minimal UI, it struggle.

I was wondering if today, someone would make an evolution of that design, so we can actually have a full computer, with OS and everything, on a small single board; so we can actually throw away all the various micro controllers that are sold for hobby use (like arduino and such); something light, multitasking, optimized.

is there a reason why the Amiga design was abandoned? From what I see it, a dedicated video card, audio card and northbridge/southbridge are in fact replacing the 3 custom chips, but there is no chance to see an OS like AmigaOS, running as it does on the "puny" specs of a standard Amiga.

Did the programmers got worst with the increase of speed? Or Jay was in fact an alien genius that did something that nobody else is able to replicate?
guybrush is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 24 July 2015, 10:17   #2
jimbob
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kilmacolm
Age: 39
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush View Post
Did the programmers got worst with the increase of speed?
No, but see Wirths law compared to Moores law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush View Post
Or Jay was in fact an alien genius that did something that nobody else is able to replicate?
Of course, and he's not dead, he just went home.
jimbob is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 10:29   #3
Predseda
Puttymoon inhabitant
Predseda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The City of Townsville
Age: 39
Posts: 4,512
Why? There is just no demand for it.
Predseda is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 12:59   #4
Daedalus
Registered User

Daedalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dublin, then Glasgow
Posts: 2,324
The Pi will struggle because we're used to things like hardware acceleration of desktop graphics etc., and when an OS that normally uses such features suddenly doesn't have them, that's what you get: A jerky, sometimes unresponsive interface. In fairness, try having a few windows open on your Workbench screen on top of each other and switching between them without a graphics card. Once you get above 16 colours it'll crawl. The only reason it was mostly responsive was because it *did* have hardware acceleration tightly integrated into the OS.

Nowadays every computer is far more powerful than you need so it's easy to get lazy. But people don't really want innovation, they want to do what they do a little bit faster. And what they want to do is vastly more complicated. Something as simple as browsing YouTube and Facebook is actually a huge deal, and a little bit tricky to do from scratch. If you throw in MS Office, Photoshop and most mainstream games, you've basically only got one choice: Conform to what's already there. If something's new and original, that's great but it'll be of little interest to the population unless it does those main things that people expect of it.
Daedalus is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 16:57   #5
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 18,274
The problem is that when you got an Amiga, computing was new and it was kind of a fantastic thing that you now see with rose tinted glasses.
Home computing nowadays is taken for granted, with a computer or computer-like device in every household, usually, MORE than one, even in your pocket.

The other problem is that coding optimally is pretty much a lost art, with people producing software computers can't cope with, waiting for technology to catch up eventually, thus pushing an endless cycle of pointless, minimal upgrades to one's computer. Could they make major operating systems run on smaller hardware? Maybe, but nobody will do it.

Your Raspberry Pi can do all the things you want it to, the thing is someone has to do it. Why not try yourself? Here's another difference with back then. It was then more common for people sit down and learn to code to get the machine to do what they wanted instead of waiting for someone miraculously dropping onto their laps their wished application, OS or game.
Akira is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 18:06   #6
daxb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
The problem is that when you got an Amiga, computing was new and it was kind of a fantastic thing that you now see with rose tinted glasses.
Home computing nowadays is taken for granted, with a computer or computer-like device in every household, usually, MORE than one, even in your pocket.
But computing with Amiga today is the same or more advanced experiences then in the past. A pc, smart phone, whatever device is just boring and I would like to claim that target user profile for such devices is different. For me using Amiga is fun. I wouldn`t expect that for pc, smart phone, tablet, ... And as you wrote most people own many of such devices which are just there like a TV, Radio or foehn. Of course there are exceptions but for the most it is valid IMHO.
daxb is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 18:30   #7
rhester72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York / USA
Posts: 134
OK, I get you, you're trying to recapture the 'new and exciting' aspect of computing. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to happen.

To another poster's point, you're talking about an era where *everything* about technology was new and exciting - a constant barrage of new (and wildly incompatible) technology with insufficient documentation and little to no previous knowledge to draw on...it was truly the "Wild West" of computing, and as a result it was simultaneously thrilling and frustrating.

Today, necessity of standardization has resulted in a thinning out of diversity and a shift from revolution to evolution. In my personal opinion, BeOS was the last shot the technical community had at something "new and exciting", but because it wouldn't run applications that people are accustomed to in their daily lives (since computing is now so pervasive, as also previously noted), it received very tepid response from all but the most hardcore technologists and died an unfortunate but entirely expected death of marketplace ignorance.

The short version: There will never be another Amiga, nor will there be that wave of excitement and passion that stirred the computing revolution as a whole - it has matured to a point of being a part of everyday existence, much like the automobile and airplanes were once fantastic, amazing, and nearly magical devices that are now taken for granted on a daily basis.

There will, no doubt, be some technological advance that is breakthrough enough to make people sit up and take notice, but if it involves computing, it will do so only peripherally.

Just my $0.02.

Rodney
rhester72 is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 21:29   #8
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 18,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
A pc, smart phone, whatever device is just boring and I would like to claim that target user profile for such devices is different. [...] as you wrote most people own many of such devices which are just there like a TV, Radio or foehn.
And that relates exactly to what I wrote abut how times have changed.
The tl;dr version of the story here is that there will never be something that will feel the way an Amiga or C64 felt back then. Perhaps if you move to another field, yeah, but in the field of personal computing, nope. As rhester says, it's gone, over, finished.

PErhaps you should get interested in space discovery or something a bit more gob-smacking
Akira is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 21:49   #9
amiman99
Registered User

amiman99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX USA
Age: 44
Posts: 718
In today's world if some software runs too slow, they tell you upgrade your hardware or buy a new computer. Back then you had to squeeze performance from your PC by optimizing your code.
amiman99 is offline  
Old 24 July 2015, 23:44   #10
Mrs Beanbag
Glastonbridge Software
Mrs Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Edinburgh/Scotland
Posts: 2,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by guybrush View Post
Beside the fact that it was actually a multi-core computer (the CPU was just driving the 3 custom chips); how advanced was the Amiga design, to see nowadays computers with GHz and GB of ram, having troubles to run even simple OS like linux?
hmm, well the Amiga was always a few years behind the times when it came to CPUs (68000 released in 1979, used in A500 in 1987; 68020 released in 1984, used in A1200 in 1992) and the custom chips were in many ways not as impressive as the graphics and sound hardware in contemporary arcade machines, or even consoles, but there was something about the particular choices and combinations that made it work.
Mrs Beanbag is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 00:46   #11
rare_j
Zone Friend

rare_j's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London
Posts: 754
When a program goes down on amiga os, it takes the whole os with all the other programs down requiring a restart, generally. Same for windows 95/98. Whats the point of multitasking when you lose all your work in progress because one of the tasks goes bad? Windows 2000 was a revalation, crappy software went down and the os just cleaned itself up and carried on. Uptime for a workstation went from days (if lucky) to months. From a productivity point of view, this was golden.
Also, security was not any sort of consideration for amiga os. I dont think I'd do my internet banking on it.
So I think that is the biggest difference between amiga os and modern os. Why this design was abandoned. Amiga is basically a toy computer. Great for people who wanted a toy computer. I'm glad i never had to rely on one for a living.
Raspberry pi 2 is so amazing because you get a proper, modern, secure, usable computer for 25 pounds. You get a lot of fun for your money, just like the amiga back in the day.
rare_j is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 02:04   #12
eXeler0
Registered User

eXeler0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Sweden
Age: 43
Posts: 1,419
I'd love to se an Amiga-esque modern computer based on QNX
http://www.qnx.com/products/neutrino...rino-rtos.html
The only OS I have great respect for ;-)

I have powerful PC's at home and at work, but I'm constantly getting irritated by a ton of things. (Windows + heavy duty Autodesk software is an endless source of frustratrion for me.. ) And every time I run into some crap that simply "shouldnt be" I dream of a new and improved computer design that is made in a certain way because I want it to behave in a certain way, NOT because that's what I get by using off the shelf components.

Never was a Mac fan, but Steve Jobs was probably the last guy on Earth who ran business that way.
Look at the retina screen in iPhone4. Was that an off the shelf component?
Jobs didnt say, yea get me whatever screen thats available.. No, he thought that all screens you could buy were crap and wanted something that would compare to paper print... so he sent the specs and asked "I want a 300dpi screen... Can you produce this screen for me? if you can Ill buy 10 million of them". That kind of stuff is driving the mainstream market forward.

The way ppl use computers is changing however. A lot of ppl get very far with e-mail, a spreadsheet and a word processor. Those dont really neeed a specific system (could be windows, linux, macos, android, ios..etc). They will never appreciate a "special" computer.. because nothing they ever do requires one...
Those who do their stuff on workstations (Like me) would love to have a effecient, stable OS / computer, but it all falls apart if I dont have exactly the right software for it etc... So that wont happen any time soon.

So who would that new computer be for? Kids play games on their phones and Playstations and Xboxes.. Thats another market you couldnt reach in a zillion years..

Well, there is a bunch of enthusiasts out there.. (i.e. Linux nerds ;-) and then there's us, old dreamers of the past. We who wont let go of that rosy old feeling that using your Amiga was a fun thing to do.
So ye, we would probably buy such a new computer.. but look around you.. we are... almost alone...
eXeler0 is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 02:29   #13
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 18,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
I'd love to se an Amiga-esque modern computer based on QNX
http://www.qnx.com/products/neutrino...rino-rtos.html
The only OS I have great respect for ;-)
Laughed loud.
Remember when Gateway said the "new Amiga" would run QNX and some sort of hybrid PPC/Intel bullshit processor or something?
http://www.trollaxor.com/2005/06/how...led-amiga.html
Akira is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 02:48   #14
eXeler0
Registered User

eXeler0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Sweden
Age: 43
Posts: 1,419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Laughed loud.
Remember when Gateway said the "new Amiga" would run QNX and some sort of hybrid PPC/Intel bullshit processor or something?
http://www.trollaxor.com/2005/06/how...led-amiga.html
I know this attempt at getting QNX to become the next Amiga OS back then.
I remember trying out some sort of "trial version" of QNX. (though no traces of amiga AFAIK) I think it was either late 98 or early 99.. It could boot to the OS from a 1.44MB 3.5" PC Floppy. What you had was a functional OS, it even had a built in web server.
At the time I was running -I believe- Windows NT on a 400MHz Pentium II.
I remember being fairly impressed.

Anyhoo, the failure to deliver to Gateway doesn't make the whole idea bad. Things can go south for a 1000 different reasons.
It still looks like a good, extremely stable and non-bloated OS to me..
I believe pretty much every car maker uses QNX for its critical systems in embedded devices.. (We are talking Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Jaguar, Toyota)
I think QNX supports NVidia Tegra X1 too, could build a decent computer around that

Edit_
And P.S. the whole point with the previous post is not QNX in particular (even if it is my personal choice) so plz dont trip on that. Exchange QNX to whatever fantastic OS of your desire. The point was, even if someone would build a great new "amiga-esque" computer, who would it be for? And how would you get ppl that dont really need anything better than they already have to use it... Times have changed.. its hard to make an impact these days.. unlike 1985...

Last edited by eXeler0; 25 July 2015 at 03:31.
eXeler0 is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 08:29   #15
Jope
-
Jope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Age: 37
Posts: 6,355
Send a message via Skype™ to Jope
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
hmm, well the Amiga was always a few years behind the times when it came to CPUs (68000 released in 1979, used in A500 in 1987; 68020 released in 1984, used in A1200 in 1992) and the custom chips were in many ways not as impressive as the graphics and sound hardware in contemporary arcade machines, or even consoles, but there was something about the particular choices and combinations that made it work.
68000, the design of the Amiga began in 1983 and The A1000 was available in 1985.

68020, first used by Commodore in the A2620 turbo, which was available in 1988.

68030, launched in 1987, implemented by Commodore in the A2630 in 1989, then later in the A3000 in 1990.

I agree, not available on day 1, but let's not stretch the dates needlessly.

Here's an early turbo from 1986 with an 020 by CSA: http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/csa1020
Jope is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 08:46   #16
guybrush
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 40
Quote:
Of course, and he's not dead, he just went home.
I hope he will stop by one of these days; to show people how you develop a rock solid system

Quote:
Why? There is just no demand for it.
If you mean that people do not want a new Amiga, yes, I agree; but if you look at the explosion in the last few years, of single board micro computer, micro-controllers and such; you will see a very interesting fact: people wants low power devices for the greatest variety of scope.

IF there was an "Amiga" SOAC, which would include in a single IC the great designt that made famous this machine; with a decent amount of memory (32 Mb? 64?), and some storage, people would buy it! Even more, if you think about an OS that can run from 880kb floppy (plus 512 Kb ROM, yes), that support multi tasking and such, beats hands down the beefy linux embedded distro, for tasks that require not exceptional power.

Quote:
The Pi will struggle because we're used to things like hardware acceleration of desktop graphics etc......
This was related to my comment about programmers getting sloppy nowadays; optimization is useless, because why squeeze few kb when you can write horrible code and tell the users "go get an extra GB or 2 of memory!" Then when they have to deal with fixed architecture that can't be expanded, the limits of nowadays "geniuses", emerge in its glory. I agree with your points, and sadly can't disagree with the one where you mention that there is no time to learn how to use a technology, because it gets obsolete in less than a year.
guybrush is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 09:00   #17
guybrush
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 40
Quote:
Your Raspberry Pi can do all the things you want it to, the thing is someone has to do it. Why not try yourself? Here's another difference with back then. It was then more common for people sit down and learn to code to get the machine to do what they wanted instead of waiting for someone miraculously dropping onto their laps their wished application, OS or game.
Agree; but I can't re-write a kernel Keep this in mind: 10 or 20 years ago, you could learn a technology and benefit from it, for years to come; I myself learned assembly on the 68K to write software with ASM; in that case it was logical because the alternative was the Intel family; which was not really that hot.

In 85, if you would spend 3 years to learn assembly, you could use it for another 5 years or more; but nowadays you learn a language that is agnostic of the processor on which it runs, optimizations are made by the compiler programmers; while you lay back and write what makes sense to you. And worst of all; you learn something that get obsolete pretty quickly (beside C, which is still around in its various idioms); because you do not have 3 years to learn something and then hope to use it. Which is why, people hope that something will fly in their lap...the time is what it is; if we would live forever and there was a new processor every 2-3 years, and a new computer innovation every few years; then it would be different

Quote:
K, I get you, you're trying to recapture the 'new and exciting' aspect of computing. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to happen.

To another poster's point, you're talking about an era where *everything* about technology was new and exciting - a constant barrage of new (and wildly incompatible) technology with insufficient documentation and little to no previous knowledge to draw on...it was truly the "Wild West" of computing, and as a result it was simultaneously thrilling and frustrating.
Yes and no....what i do not miss of those dark times, were the lack of collaboration; you were on your own; and if you were lucky, you had a good library with enough books to keep you going.

But today is different; I miss that part of technology where people were into a product, not into a continuous race for a faster iterated product.
Look at what we have today: phones are smart, but fundamentally are old pc miniaturized, hooked up to a network without wires. Tablets are mostly the same as the phones; home computers has the same old architecture, beside that now we have a powerhouse as graphic card, which has billions of TFlops, which we use to...play games

Where is the innovation? Where is the art of getting the most out of what you have? Amiga as computer was revolutionary, because allowed people to do something that was not meant to be done on a computer; and today I wish that someone would risk something to get to the next level; where we can get all excited again for a new technology to learn, that will be around for a long time (where long is a relative amount of time between few years and a decade). Today we sit and consume, before you were the center of the universe; and this is why you see this crazy love that exploded for micro controllers and makers of electronic stuff.

Quote:
In today's world if some software runs too slow, they tell you upgrade your hardware or buy a new computer. Back then you had to squeeze performance from your PC by optimizing your code.
Exactly; give today to a genius, a fixed hardware device, tell em to write an os for it; and look at what kind of hell you stir up
guybrush is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 09:12   #18
guybrush
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 40
Quote:
hmm, well the Amiga was always a few years behind the times when it came to CPUs (68000 released in 1979, used in A500 in 1987; 68020 released in 1984, used in A1200 in 1992) and the custom chips were in many ways not as impressive as the graphics and sound hardware in contemporary arcade machines, or even consoles, but there was something about the particular choices and combinations that made it work.
Yes, and look at it in perspective: chip were expensive; they won't sell as many units as they sell phones today. Also custom chips were quite advanced, considering that were multi-purpose...a bar JAMMA card would work with some rom, but fundamentally was tied to a specific programming design, which is why some chipset were better for fighting games, some were better for 3d and racing and so on. The Amiga would do all in one; which has the trade off to loose a bit in comparison to dedicated solution.

The PC-Engine was also a similar machine, using a 8 bit processor to drive the powerhouse from NEC; which was a 32 bit design if I recall correctly, although the bus was set to 16 Bit. That console was amazing, considering what was running on it; and after a bit, Sega and Nintendo started with the custom chipset architecture; which show that it was actually a winning choice.

Quote:
When a program goes down on amiga os, it takes the whole os with all the other programs down requiring a restart, generally. Same for windows 95/98. Whats the point of multitasking when you lose all your work in progress because one of the tasks goes bad? Windows 2000 was a revalation, crappy software went down and the os just cleaned itself up and carried on. Uptime for a workstation went from days (if lucky) to months. From a productivity point of view, this was golden.
Also, security was not any sort of consideration for amiga os. I dont think I'd do my internet banking on it.
So I think that is the biggest difference between amiga os and modern os
You are talking of an OS that was based on monolithic kernel; main thread was running the boat; the other threads were the children, so if children die and does not affect other component, AmigaOS would continue to run; but if something happens to main; then it is sadness and grief.

Today we learned how to do things better; Unix for example is the baseline for reliable OS architecture; and somehow AmigaOS was based on that; although it could not work in the same way, because 5 guys, as much talented as they can be, cannot write something like Unix, that was developed by hundreds of people.

Give time and tools to a talented group today; like 40-50 people; and you will see that they can actually grab what is needed by any linux distro and make a custom based OS, that would act like a modern os; but still retain the look and feel of AmigaOs.
I do not want a sloppy frontend that look like WB; I want something with the same structure of the file system that I see on 3.1; with the same dos commands; same way to use the startup-sequence; and so on, but without the negative of a 30 year old OS

Plus, I am not telling you to replace your "reliable" windows machine; a low power device based on Amiga technology and OS, would work for many cases, but won't be your default desktop replacement (although I saw people running Amiga today, and do all that they need; and still it is faster than a PI running Raspbian )
guybrush is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 09:21   #19
guybrush
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 40
Quote:
I have powerful PC's at home and at work, but I'm constantly getting irritated by a ton of things. (Windows + heavy duty Autodesk software is an endless source of frustratrion for me.. ) And every time I run into some crap that simply "shouldnt be" I dream of a new and improved computer design that is made in a certain way because I want it to behave in a certain way, NOT because that's what I get by using off the shelf components.
Now imagine the same experience on a 40 dollars device that run something as close as it can be to OS3.1....

At least you didn't waste 1K to get such experience I won't bet anytime on someone reviving the Amiga and replacing Windows; but there is a whole area where neither tablets, laptop or desktop computer are able to cover, and that's where the Amiga-like product would sit.

Better than a Pi, that's with the same price tag.

Quote:
even if someone would build a great new "amiga-esque" computer, who would it be for? And how would you get ppl that dont really need anything better than they already have to use it... Times have changed.. its hard to make an impact these days.. unlike 1985...
As mentioned before, there is a whole area open for that: low cost low power computing is a big thing nowadays.
People buy SOAC boards; people put in libraries and other public places, cheap cards that run washed down linux distro; which is more than enough...they are the equivalent of our telnet terminal in the 70s and 80s,

30 years ago, not everyone had the latest and most expensive item....it was exactly like today. Some can afford and buy the great powerhose for 4K, others buy the cheap netbook for 199.
Keep in mind all the makers that are doing amazing stuff with cheap micro-controllers; and you have a great area where Amiga-like devices could potentially set in.
guybrush is offline  
Old 25 July 2015, 11:43   #20
Paul_s
needs more ice cream

Paul_s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Amigaville
Age: 39
Posts: 3,162
mr_A500 on here wrote this a few years ago which sums up my feeling. I don't think we'll ever capture that essence the Amiga (amongst other machines from back then) gave us. It was the golden age of computing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_a500
"Amiga is the link between the mysterious originality of early computers and the boring tedium and painful stupidity of modern shit computers."


Meaning: Early computers were mysterious, interesting, original and most of all FUN. They were for intelligent hobbyists to use their intellect to make or do something interesting. Amiga was the ultimate pinnacle and sadly the last of the era of mysterious, interesting, original, fun early hobby computers.

The death of Amiga (or a few years before - the "dying of Amiga") marks the beginning of the era of boring "computing for the masses". The very nature of "computing for the masses" means it is no longer for intelligent hobbyists, but for every brain-dead moron and senile grandmother who needs to be shown repeatedly how to double-click. These masses of morons then decided with their ill-informed and stupid purchases, the garbage computers that would go on to be the most successful. The evil corporations making these garbage computers subsequently (and illegally) crushed all competition.

Computers now are about as interesting as a donkey's anus and about as fun as reading a Japanese phonebook while getting smacked across the face with an electric eel.
Paul_s is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Amiga 1200 computer sidrulez! MarketPlace 4 02 January 2015 00:36
looking for my amiga 3000 computer amicrawler MarketPlace 4 19 September 2009 22:50
Amiga inc reveal new entry Amiga computer - $489usd Mikey_C News 132 01 October 2007 14:10
The DADDY Amiga computer is? Bloodwych Retrogaming General Discussion 27 05 August 2002 19:14

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.26964 seconds with 11 queries