English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 02 July 2015, 22:34   #21
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 45
Posts: 10,745
Quote:
personally I do not think it looks so horrible when not zoomed in as much as the video is doing
I meant the interlaced artefacts in motion (scrolling games), not the zoom. The output should be progressive in 720p/1080p imo.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 02 July 2015, 22:40   #22
Jope
-
Jope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Age: 37
Posts: 6,358
Send a message via Skype™ to Jope
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staringlizard View Post
I would say that the PAL Amiga normally output 576i. All the games I have tried so far at least. The startup screen is not using the interlaced mode though. But I could be wrong ?
Only the flickering Amiga modes are in interlace, everything else is displayed in a progressive mode (288p for PAL machines). So to me this sounds like you're forcibly deinterlacing a progressive screen. Each field is unique.

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

Quote:
If you think the interlacing will get worse in PAL mode by changing vertical Hz, It is an interesting thought, one that I will test today actually
Thankfully it is very easy to change.
Well not the interlacing, but if you have something that runs 50FPS (such as a scrolling playfield), you will get jerky motion.
Jope is offline  
Old 03 July 2015, 00:10   #23
Staringlizard
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lund
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
is it possible to configure it not to stretch the image sideways to widescreen width? or does it work with non-widescreen monitors?
Yes, it is possible. As you can see in the video when oil imperium the button has a mode which it is shrinking the horizontal width. I do not know if toady it is possible to get it exactly 1:1 with this option though. It is also possible to configure this by UART (3.3V ttl) on the card itself (where all registers can be manually set for ad9984 and adv7511w).

I have tried on a monitor here that is non-wide and very old (found it in the trash). On this monitor it seems that the monitor itself takes own measures to counter this problem and it looks OK.
Staringlizard is offline  
Old 03 July 2015, 00:13   #24
Staringlizard
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lund
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jope View Post
Only the flickering Amiga modes are in interlace, everything else is displayed in a progressive mode (288p for PAL machines). So to me this sounds like you're forcibly deinterlacing a progressive screen. Each field is unique.

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/



Well not the interlacing, but if you have something that runs 50FPS (such as a scrolling playfield), you will get jerky motion.
It seems you are correct, I found some bug in the Verilog code that will make even progressive output display as interlaced

Thank for your input, I will see what I can do. I think I will release another video where I demonstrate horizontal movement as well as vertical.

Regards,
StaringL
Staringlizard is offline  
Old 03 July 2015, 00:44   #25
kipper2k
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Thunder Bay, Canada
Posts: 3,617
Love it,

One more thing with the design, The 23 pin right angle through hole connectors are very hard to find, so unless you have an A520 to mutilate the board is not going to get a lot of users. Any chance of modding it for a 23 pin solder cup connector (this way a cut down 25 pin solder cup connector can be used.

(In theory a cut down 25 pin R/A through hole could be used)
kipper2k is offline  
Old 03 July 2015, 00:58   #26
Mrs Beanbag
Glastonbridge Software
Mrs Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Edinburgh/Scotland
Posts: 2,202
i would happily buy one with a cable so it doesn't have to stick straight out of the back of the computer (which isn't very convenient if the monitor is right behind.)
Mrs Beanbag is offline  
Old 03 July 2015, 08:21   #27
Jope
-
Jope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Age: 37
Posts: 6,358
Send a message via Skype™ to Jope
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staringlizard View Post
It seems you are correct, I found some bug in the Verilog code that will make even progressive output display as interlaced

Thank for your input, I will see what I can do. I think I will release another video where I demonstrate horizontal movement as well as vertical.

Regards,
StaringL
Cool stuff, hope you get it running. I'm definitely following your project with interest. :-)
Jope is offline  
Old 03 July 2015, 14:36   #28
Daedalus
Registered User

Daedalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dublin, then Glasgow
Posts: 2,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staringlizard View Post
I am not sure, but anything that outputs 576i and probably similar formats like 480i (not tested) will be converted. I have tested with Amiga 500 and Amiga 1200 in PAL. Multiscan and other formats will not work. In most games I think 576i is used but I am not sure.
Very few games use interlaced output - pretty much everything uses 50Hz 288p (or 60Hz 240p on an NTSC Amiga).

Quote:
The horizontal update frequency is around 15Khz for these old computers. I do not think you can use the RBG input on your not so old TV due to lack of support. But I am not sure, if you try it out, please send a memo
Every TV will support 15kHz if it has analogue inputs since this is also the frequency used by analogue video signals. I've yet to see a new TV without at least one analogue input, but I suppose those days will arrive at some point so it's good to have a HDMI option available. Computer monitors are a different story since they don't often support 15kHz, but that's been the case for probably 20 years so it's nothing new.

Good work on the project!
Daedalus is offline  
Old 03 July 2015, 23:39   #29
Staringlizard
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lund
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
Very few games use interlaced output - pretty much everything uses 50Hz 288p (or 60Hz 240p on an NTSC Amiga).



Every TV will support 15kHz if it has analogue inputs since this is also the frequency used by analogue video signals. I've yet to see a new TV without at least one analogue input, but I suppose those days will arrive at some point so it's good to have a HDMI option available. Computer monitors are a different story since they don't often support 15kHz, but that's been the case for probably 20 years so it's nothing new.

Good work on the project!
Thanks a lot, I will keep you guys updated on the project. Perhaps we can get a small series of these boards to be produced

Oh, I did not know that, I thought it was 30Khz minimum on VGA, but maybe this is only true for computer monitors. And I agree, HDMI will be around for some years to come.
Staringlizard is offline  
Old 04 July 2015, 01:34   #30
Mrs Beanbag
Glastonbridge Software
Mrs Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Edinburgh/Scotland
Posts: 2,202
we use an XBox 360 over HDMI on a (fairly cheap) PC monitor, and i think that is 50Hz, not sure though

i'm not sure why it would even matter on today's LCD screens, since there is not an actual electron beam sweeping the screen, it must have a maximum refresh rate but why there would be a minimum i don't know
Mrs Beanbag is offline  
Old 04 July 2015, 18:03   #31
Devlin
Sorcerian

Devlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bradford, UK
Age: 31
Posts: 236
I would very much like to know when/if these are released properly. I really don't like the idea of attaching things directly on top of the chips on my amiga and my shitty composite/vga adapter isn't up to snuff any more.

I'd like to see it with a cable of some sort(detachable?), instead of attaching directly to the back of the amiga.
Devlin is offline  
Old 04 July 2015, 19:21   #32
Supamax
Da Digger :)

Supamax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Monza, Italy
Posts: 2,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staringlizard View Post
I would say that the PAL Amiga normally output 576i
Absolutely correct.
As every 15 KHz PAL product (DVD players, VCRs, DVB Decoders ecc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jope View Post
Only the flickering Amiga modes are in interlace, everything else is displayed in a progressive mode (288p for PAL machines). So to me this sounds like you're forcibly deinterlacing a progressive screen. Each field is unique.
No. Normal RGB Amiga signal (15 KHz) is always outputting in *interlaced* 50Hz mode.
It never outputs a 288p progressive signal. Never.
So the assumption that the output signal is always 576i is correct.
Amiga interlaced (highres) modes have a further "internal" interlacing, meaning that the refresh is half the normal (that's why these modes are so fatiguing for the eyes). But ALL Amiga modes are output as interlaced (apart from the new ECS productive modes, shown on 31KHz monitors).

Last edited by Supamax; 04 July 2015 at 19:29.
Supamax is offline  
Old 04 July 2015, 21:49   #33
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 45
Posts: 10,745
Sorry Supamax. This is nonsense. All computer/consoles from that time outputs a 240/288p signal for lores games. It's a non-standard PAL/NTSC signal, today also comparable with Low-definition television. Don't mix up the interlaced TV standard with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-definition_television

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 04 July 2015 at 21:56.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 04 July 2015, 21:55   #34
Jope
-
Jope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Age: 37
Posts: 6,358
Send a message via Skype™ to Jope
Indeed indeed. This is not a broadcast video signal at all.. Just something the TVs at the time happened to accept.

In a progressive mode, the Amiga only outputs even fields.

http://jope.fi/amiga/Specifications_AGNUS_png0039.png
Jope is offline  
Old 04 July 2015, 23:52   #35
Staringlizard
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lund
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devlin View Post
I would very much like to know when/if these are released properly. I really don't like the idea of attaching things directly on top of the chips on my amiga and my shitty composite/vga adapter isn't up to snuff any more.

I'd like to see it with a cable of some sort(detachable?), instead of attaching directly to the back of the amiga.
I will keep you guys posted. If this product where to be released I think there will be lots of changes, including what you are saying.
Staringlizard is offline  
Old 05 July 2015, 15:47   #36
SleepyMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Harderwijk/Netherlands
Posts: 25
WOW really cool , if you are going to sell them I would be very interested.. Is the Price Range set at this moment
SleepyMan is offline  
Old 05 July 2015, 17:22   #37
Staringlizard
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lund
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyMan View Post
WOW really cool , if you are going to sell them I would be very interested.. Is the Price Range set at this moment
Nothing is really set yet, keep your eyes on this thread
Staringlizard is offline  
Old 05 July 2015, 17:26   #38
Staringlizard
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Lund
Posts: 23
Hi,

I made another video as demonstration. I have fixed some bugs and also changed the output to 50Hz as Jobe pointed out. I have also tried and highlight the current issues in this video.

[ Show youtube player ]

Regards,
StaringL
Staringlizard is offline  
Old 05 July 2015, 17:37   #39
eXeler0
Registered User

eXeler0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Sweden
Age: 43
Posts: 1,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staringlizard View Post
Hi,

I made another video as demonstration. I have fixed some bugs and also changed the output to 50Hz as Jobe pointed out. I have also tried and highlight the current issues in this video.

[ Show youtube player ]

Regards,
StaringL
This is AMAZING work @StaringLizard
I love it when ppl be like "scr3w this, Ill make it myself" ;-)
If you would consider producing higher volumes there are ppl around on these boards with the proper connections with the right kind of manufacturers for projects like this.
eXeler0 is offline  
Old 05 July 2015, 20:08   #40
Predseda
Puttymoon inhabitant
Predseda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The City of Townsville
Age: 39
Posts: 4,517
Seems A520s will be wanted soon
Predseda is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kipper2K HDMI Audio Output bbond007 support.Hardware 4 04 October 2012 01:50
HDMI with Amiga? lordofchaos support.Hardware 5 17 November 2011 16:05
Amiga to HDMI Reynolds support.Hardware 6 20 April 2011 19:47
Doing mods to the Amiga sound output 8bitbubsy Hardware mods 2 22 March 2010 08:41
Best HDMI output laptop for WinUAE retrogaming heaven Pyromania Amiga scene 3 10 November 2009 19:39

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.36412 seconds with 11 queries