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Old 20 October 2015, 18:08   #441
wmsteele
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The last few pages have been fairly eye opening in places. I hope it’s not the case but this ‘debate’ seems to be very conveniently timed. The community as a whole is a much richer place thanks to people like Phillipe and the Apollo team, who despite overly aggressive criticism continue with their projects unhindered, thankfully. Everyone has a place but I don’t think anyone can expect to sit in judgement.
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Old 20 October 2015, 18:10   #442
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I think that the big commercial party's like Individual computers / Amigakit are ruining the atmosphere on this board. More and more amiga products are made by enthusiastic users, and they are starting to feel it. The result can we seen here. I sold most of my Amiga gear after Amigakit started to buy old software, messing around with it and slapped there own sticker on it, or pay per MHz accelerators. you are vultures and I will never buy anything from you again. I can only hope that the owner of eab one day decides to ban all the big commercial sellers, so we can go back to our beloved hobby.
Sorry but I'am sick of this.
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Old 20 October 2015, 18:22   #443
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
Full sized keyboards are must to have.
To you. I never use that garbage and get keyboards without them.


I don't understand this alternate case project. There's no hole for the keyboard? How does it work?

Last edited by Akira; 20 October 2015 at 18:35.
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Old 20 October 2015, 20:40   #444
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I don't understand this alternate case project. There's no hole for the keyboard? How does it work?
Perhaps you sit an external keyboard on top? Kind of stupid IMO.
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Old 20 October 2015, 20:44   #445
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I think that the big commercial party's like Individual computers / Amigakit are ruining the atmosphere on this board.
My, what an over simplification.

I doubt Jens has that much power or is attempting to manipulate anyone. He got dubious information from biased sources and instead of asking them to prove their assertions he made them public.

This is disgraceful but that's about it.
If you have never made such a mistake, good for you but that's only human.

As many have said, it's up to him to close this chapter gracefully but there is no need to get into conspiracy theories. I am convinced Jens is a honest person and I am not going to stop buying his products because of this.
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Old 21 October 2015, 00:43   #446
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Originally Posted by Kremlar View Post
Perhaps you sit an external keyboard on top? Kind of stupid IMO.
I think there are two options, one for doing exactly what you described and the other one looks just as good as the original ones, if these are cheaper I see no contest (but can I have a transparent one please? )
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As many have said, it's up to him to close this chapter gracefully but there is no need to get into conspiracy theories. I am convinced Jens is a honest person and I am not going to stop buying his products because of this.
Unfortunately, kitten friend, the Amiga scene is full of this kinda shit and this is why we don't get all those things people wonder why they aren't getting (like "why is this game not on Amiga? It's possible"). It tends to get into ridiculous animosity fueled by whatever and as soon as someone does not support anything that has had the "Amiga" name slapped to it, it's considered a heretic, leading to sub-par, overpriced developments we'd be much better without plus people not in it not wanting to even get close to it because of said animosity. And a lot of sad online faces.

Jens Schoenefeld makes some really good stuff for your Amiga and despite his opinions or how he deals with online communication, his value to the scene is unquestionable and I very much disagree with him being called unfair or other things just because he thinks a certain project is improperly led and overpriced ( I agree with some of those points too, for example).

Last edited by Akira; 21 October 2015 at 00:49.
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Old 21 October 2015, 03:01   #447
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jens, you have aggresively criticized gunnar and igor in the past. if you were always right, there wouldnt be neither vampire accelerators nor apollo core out there.
You'd have a point if there were working Vampire accelerators or Apollo core out there.
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Old 21 October 2015, 05:15   #448
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afaik there is a number of people who own vampire v1 boards and have been delivered adopted apollo core and also there are some who have development version of v2. head straight to the appropriate thread here to see results.
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Old 21 October 2015, 09:15   #449
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You'd have a point if there were working Vampire accelerators or Apollo core out there.
How much research have you put into that statement? They are working well enough to run a whole bunch of software and they do it faster than any 060 card ever sold.
Just because they are in the middle of a debug process you cant simply dismiss them as non working...
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Old 21 October 2015, 11:13   #450
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*sigh* you're digging out every detail now.

idrougge is right, I don't see any systematic approach to the CPU-on-FPGA projects right now. I wanted to introduce a scientific touch to that work by coordinating a joint effort to write a 68k test suite. Obviously, this is a lot of work, but IMHO it's the only way to really *prove* that the newly-developed CPU is doing what the original 68k is doing.

See on a1k.org what that turned into: I was accused of making the project too expensive; any and all reasoning *for* a scientific approach was slapped down. Merely asking for the way that the core is tested has gotten me the role of the bad guy. That's not the way to make a product.

Yes, there is a core that runs a benchmark, and it runs that benchmark really fast. However, just starting the Amiga and run a few programs does not prove that the CPU is 100% working. It's not a product, but a proof of concept. It does have a chance to become a product, though. Lots of time has passed since I've made my comments about a requirement for a test suite. Maybe they did something like that now - I don't know.

Jens
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Old 21 October 2015, 19:09   #451
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@jens
A tool to test compatibility may be nice have, sure.. but in a larger contex.. is it even relevant? Its not like the original 68k family is without issues.. how many programs crashed on a 060 when it came out?
For most ppl it will be enough that "almost everything" runs, not being concerned if the CPU actually behaves like a genuine 68k.. whatever definition that might be.

The FPGA arcade team had a similar approach.. bug / beta testing until "good enough" might not be the most scientific way to do it, but for the end user the method works well enough.
Its not like we are talking about mainstream products here that will sell to millions of average joe noobs.. ;-)
Besides.. unlike accelerators using genuine 68 parts, the FPGA core is "alive" and fixable through future updates which mean it will only get better over time... but... Im stating the obcious here...
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Old 21 October 2015, 19:14   #452
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Yes it is relevant.

Otherwise people will in 25years /still/ complain. See the Apollo cards. Were basically o.k. then.

Some will get the idea that there are glitches without a proper test suite.

Most will complain from Day 1.

Cheers,
McT
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Old 21 October 2015, 19:23   #453
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Im certainly not against the idea of useful tool..however - Its not like a test suite that a bunch of ppl create (and the test tool itself can be buggy of course) will solve all issues. A lot of incompatibilities are there for other reasons.
The world will never run out of whining ppl, thats for sure. Im simply saying that what will make the end user satisfied is how well the product works in 99% of everyday usage cases not so much what value a test tool returns. But if you can use that tool to more quickly arrive there, fine.
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Old 21 October 2015, 20:31   #454
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Originally Posted by Schoenfeld View Post
I wanted to introduce a scientific touch to that work by coordinating a joint effort to write a 68k test suite. Obviously, this is a lot of work, but IMHO it's the only way to really *prove* that the newly-developed CPU is doing what the original 68k is doing.
im not sure but i think matthey did some work in that direction. ill leave it for him to tell.
Quote:
See on a1k.org what that turned into: I was accused of making the project too expensive;
afair it was mostly you who accused the project to be a fake, a risc processor running forged benchmark and the like. for reference here, your post #10:
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread....hlight=vampire
Quote:
any and all reasoning *for* a scientific approach was slapped down. Merely asking for the way that the core is tested has gotten me the role of the bad guy. That's not the way to make a product.
none acused you to be bad guy. at least what i have read on open forum gunnar repeatedly proposed you to visit him and witness the project first hand, in a rather collegial tone, in fact contrary to you initial reaction.

you made a proposal to develop that test suite, but none on the forum reacted. why are people behind apollo core responsible for that? they have their own work on their hands.

Quote:
Yes, there is a core that runs a benchmark, and it runs that benchmark really fast. However, just starting the Amiga and run a few programs does not prove that the CPU is 100% working.
the core runs a number of amiga stuff, among others workbench, games, benchmarks. in other words: if it looks, smells and quacks like a duck, what is it?

admittedly, what it doesnt run is kickstart 3.9 apparently, but they are actively working on compatibility. so while i wouldnt expect it to be 100% compatible to each of the 68k processor options, it may have a chance (maybe) to be as compatible to them as they were to each other, or better.
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Old 21 October 2015, 22:04   #455
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Originally Posted by eXeler0 View Post
@jens
A tool to test compatibility may be nice have, sure.. but in a larger context.. is it even relevant? Its not like the original 68k family is without issues.. how many programs crashed on a 060 when it came out?
For most ppl it will be enough that "almost everything" runs, not being concerned if the CPU actually behaves like a genuine 68k.. whatever definition that might be.
The Apollo team uses test cases for testing the core. A superscalar core with caches needs significantly more testing and verification than a simpler core like the TG68. The early revisions of the 68060 had bugs which only occurred with a specific sequence of instructions for example. Programs which crashed on the 68060 were usually a result of buggy support software or the larger caches.

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im not sure but i think matthey did some work in that direction. ill leave it for him to tell.
Gunnar wanted me to write some test cases but I never wrote any official test cases. I did point out some code which I thought would be good to test. I didn't know what test cases were already available and I never had access to them (although I believe the current test cases are extensive and are used regularly after core changes). I did contact Dave Alsup of the Fido 68k/CPU32 processor project hoping to get him interested in the Apollo project and maybe use some of the test tools they used. Dave was really nice but busy so we didn't get very far. I was also pushing for an eventual ASIC which would have given InnovASIC a reason to work with us but Gunnar didn't think it was realistic. I also modified the ADis 68k disassembler into a 68k code analyzer which gathered statistics used in development but that is not a testing and verification tool.

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admittedly, what it doesnt run is kickstart 3.9 apparently, but they are actively working on compatibility. so while i wouldnt expect it to be 100% compatible to each of the 68k processor options, it may have a chance (maybe) to be as compatible to them as they were to each other, or better.
The lack of AmigaOS 3.9 compatibility may be Amiga specific and not a CPU problem. It also require a 68020 which adds the maximum complexity of any 68k integer CPU. It is a very good test for the Apollo core.

Last edited by matthey; 21 October 2015 at 22:34.
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Old 21 October 2015, 22:30   #456
Schoenfeld
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Wawa:
Granted, I was not very polite in that thread. However, pretty much of what I suspected has turned out to be true:

- the Vampire 600 demo that was presented was written specifically without instructions not implemented or not working correctly. Gunnar confirmed that a few posts later. I was wrong about the RISC assumption, but I was right about it not being 68k yet.

- The Vampire 600 FPGA is way too small for a full implementation of what Gunnar was suggesting

- Gunnar specifically avoided answering critical questions, giving more reason to believe that it's more like "I have an idea, let's try it", rather than careful planning and execution of an extremely complex job (see post#44 of that thread)

If you read further in that thread, you don't only see me interested, but also with a few suggestions. What you do not see in that thread is the wave of negativity that reached my mailbox. Similar accusations as what you can see here: A friendly variant would be "you're not the only one who can pull off a project".

What Gunnar presented lately is impressive. However, to make this a product (which is what many people want), it's still a LONG way to go. While this is a work-in-progress, there is really no need for me to provide any input, other than pointing out that it is what it is: Work in progress.

Jens
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Old 21 October 2015, 22:42   #457
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Schoenfeld about your project its possible to replace DB23 for a DB25 and cut the 2 pins, so we can use genlocks and if needed create DB25 to VGA (RGB) or put a PIN header for later if people want to use it?
Can do the same for external floppy connector.

Or / and after this project what you think by creating a motherboard with ATX compliance, in that way you don't have any restrictions to have space for other expansions cards, like zorro slots, expansion video slots (two maybe or just one) and pci (inactive or active, maybe talking with Elbox to give you hand).

Also its possible to tease a bit, by showing any picture of your admirable work?
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Old 22 October 2015, 02:09   #458
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Wawa:
Gunnar specifically avoided answering critical questions
yeah, him not being the only one pulling a project. i have experiece observing this, while watching the amiga scene since long. he might be just as far as executing some asm instructions usefull demos, lets say point (half) taken.

Quote:
If you read further in that thread, you don't only see me interested, but also with a few suggestions.
i remember. you gave some advices, but nothing essential as far as i can judge. you have been staying on distance (auf tuchfühlung) which is understandable imho.

Quote:
What you do not see in that thread is the wave of negativity that reached my mailbox.
therefore i reserved my judgemet to what i have red in the forum. im sure you wont find my email in these hate mails. the community is pretty vunerable, but lets be honest, if you worded your posts less offensive, it wouldnt be the case. as example, i remember gunnar justifying coldfire as option few months before on a1k. he has met a general hate wave. even though its been proven right and him fals, he has reconsidered, but he actually seems to have tried.

Quote:
What Gunnar presented lately is impressive.
which is essential, after all.

Quote:
However, to make this a product (which is what many people want), it's still a LONG way to go. While this is a work-in-progress, there is really no need for me to provide any input, other than pointing out that it is what it is: Work in progress.
certainly. just, i dont know about the guys in apollo team, but you cant expect people in amiga community to obey the regular project rules. you have an enterprise. but the others, its like wavwes of motivation, come and go, you cant appy the corporate technices here (except maybe with certain very responsible and professional individuals). you can only pretend like doing so, which is worse.
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Old 22 October 2015, 02:12   #459
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jens, im not sure btw, if its good to pursue this ot here. mine was only a remark, i dont want to flood all the space with it. as far as im concerned im off. one can starta separate topic if necessary.
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Old 22 October 2015, 02:17   #460
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This thread is meant to be about a new motherboard isn't it?

Let's try and stay on topic peoples..
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