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Old 02 June 2015, 12:22   #161
demolition
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It seems to me like Blitz Basic pretty much covers that. You can use low level Amiga functions in a high level language.
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Old 02 June 2015, 12:25   #162
Mrs Beanbag
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yeah but it's BASIC.

maybe it's Good BASIC but it's still BASIC and that makes me go "yuck".

i know you can define data structures in it, which is nice, although the syntax is a bit weird.
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Old 02 June 2015, 12:28   #163
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So you'd rather have something like 'Blitz Java' on the Amiga?
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Old 02 June 2015, 12:31   #164
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haha, i guess, yeah! well don't get me started on the shortcomings of Java in particular but you nailed the concept.
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Old 02 June 2015, 12:52   #165
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But you don't need a specific language for that (nor would you want to), just a decent C library would do.
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Old 02 June 2015, 12:54   #166
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If I coded I'd probably use Blitz Basic.

Yes it's BASIC, but then it's BASIC. I started coding on Atari BASIC, if there's one place to start for any platform, for me it's basic, whether it's GWBasic or Visual Basic or whatever.

BASIC is good.
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Old 02 June 2015, 13:18   #167
Mrs Beanbag
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BASIC is terrible!

Sure it gets you started, but it also encourages a lot of bad habits. At least, every BASIC i've ever used does. AMOS in particular is dreadful from a language design point of view, although you can produce some interesting stuff with it.

A decent C library would be brilliant (assuming also a decent toolchain) although i would really miss the extra features that C++ brings to the table. That's what i'm thinking about, modern programming paradigms, object-oriented and functional programming features.
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Old 02 June 2015, 13:30   #168
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I think we could start "rant the BASIC" thread, couldnt we?
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Old 02 June 2015, 13:35   #169
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Personally, I think any text based language teaches bad habits. I want to write a graphic language based on icons like AmigaVision and its flow editor.

OOP makes code reusable but slower. If people would write flatter objects and less inheritance, it would run like a champ.
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Old 02 June 2015, 13:43   #170
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I never got the hate for BASIC. It works. And it's easy to teach and learn.
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Old 02 June 2015, 13:46   #171
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inheritance is great but overused, but it shouldn't have a performance impact except for virtual method calls, and again that shouldn't depend on the depth of the inheritance. Maybe dynamic casts are the problem? If you're doing a lot of dynamic casting you should rethink your design.

Look up "Scratch".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch...ng_language%29

But... there's already too much assumption of graphics in computers, it makes things hell for blind people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predseda View Post
I think we could start "rant the BASIC" thread, couldnt we?
I really shouldn't. I don't "hate" BASIC, it's afterall what got me started, but the world has moved on from that now.
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Old 02 June 2015, 13:48   #172
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I am looking at making some VERY basic little games/wastes of time/ embarrassments using Amos Pro. I was fiddling with sound samples yesterday actually and had forgotten just how much of a challenge it was to get the best quality sounds but the lowest file size. I will be using Amos because it's relatively easy for someone of my programming skills as assembler and even Blitz Basic is simply too daunting for me. I have looked at it but it didn't sink in. I sort of understand Amos so I am sticking with that.
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Old 02 June 2015, 13:54   #173
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I used to like programming in Amos Pro, I really enjoyed it. Its performance is low, but it is fun to code in it. And if you master it, you are able to create impressive games, there are many examples.

Thats my "rant the basic" post
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Old 02 June 2015, 14:08   #174
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AMOS has some powerful features that i really love. That you can just load in IFF pictures, ProTracker mods &c, and save them along with your program, unpack the graphics and play the mod with a couple of lines... in many ways it is a dream. Easy to learn, difficult to master - but only partly because of the performance. I find i have to declare loads of variables as global, arrays can't be dynamically resized, if you want to implement any kind of data structure you find yourself peeking and poking directly into memory banks, and at that point you start to wonder if you shouldn't be using something else.

And with such arbitrary limitations, why only 8 screens? Why all the memory banks accessed by number? It's these kinds of things i find difficult to come back to after several years of C++, or even Asm.

It would be nice if AMOS could do things like
Code:
S = new Screen(320,256,16,lowres)
B = new Reserve as Chip(4096)

Last edited by Mrs Beanbag; 02 June 2015 at 14:19.
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Old 02 June 2015, 14:46   #175
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For inspiration: One Game a Month.
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Old 02 June 2015, 14:57   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post

It would be nice if AMOS could do things like
Code:
S = new Screen(320,256,16,lowres)
B = new Reserve as Chip(4096)
You mean allocate "S" (or "B") variable to a row of a code? It is only about shortcuts then, isnt it? If you could do the same, but by another way, I think it is still acceptable.

I love calling of a procedures in amos and the way the interpretter rolls them on and off.
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Old 02 June 2015, 15:33   #177
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The suggestion to make a linker library for game development, which can be used from most languages, like C, C++, assembler, seems like a good idea. But in practice such a solution can never be efficient.

For example you cannot write a general BOB routine, because it very much depends on the type of game and screen layout. You need very different BOB rendering routines for:
- separate bitplanes versus interleaved bitplanes
- deal with drawing BOBs accross the split, caused by vertical copper-aided scrolling
- etc.

You will end with several BOB drawing routines for any possible purpose, or a general purpose routine which is slow.

I already thought about the usefulness of such a library myself when writing several games, and I think especially the flexible design of copper lists is challenging to provide in such a library.
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Old 02 June 2015, 16:45   #178
Mrs Beanbag
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predseda View Post
You mean allocate "S" (or "B") variable to a row of a code? It is only about shortcuts then, isnt it? If you could do the same, but by another way, I think it is still acceptable.

I love calling of a procedures in amos and the way the interpretter rolls them on and off.
no i mean actually allow variables to store different kinds of objects, much like how you can currently use strings. You wouldn't be limited to the number of screens, and you could create arrays of screens, as well as the obvious advantage of being able to refer to them by name instead of by number which is better for readability (as long as you don't use obtuse variable names like "S"!)
Code:
Dim s(20)
for i=0 to 19
  s(i)=new Screen(...)
next i
Being able to collapse procedures down to one line is a cool feature of the editor! Modern text editors can also sometimes do things like that with source code. Maybe it was ahead of its time in that respect!
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Old 02 June 2015, 20:59   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
iObviously there is Blitz, i don't know what that's like to program in.

As a n00b inb Blitz i can tell you my impressions so far:
- the BASIC syntax is more towards the old gW-Basic than a C/ECMA language, plus some stuff got its own idiosincrasies (like statements and functions using curly braces for parameters);
- it shows considerable power for a compiled BASIC but is well hidden so you need to know the innards of the machine to use it good;
- newtypes are essentially C structures and need to be addressed like that including byte size (byte, word,longword and other parameters i need to see);
- the integration with TED is a PITA because ted and the debugger can be temperamental (got loads of guru trying to do a text debug) but is much better than the fully non-OS-friendly interface of AMOS;

- if you want to use an extgernal editor remember to save in ASCII that the .bb2 format includes its own markup and other parameters and is not directly readable, and old TED is not that customizable :/

however the fact that i got simple tutorials running gave me some good feeling so for me at least is good to try; then once i feel more confident i could also migrate to more technical languages...
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Old 03 June 2015, 00:50   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
AMOS has some powerful features that i really love. That you can just load in IFF pictures, ProTracker mods &c, and save them along with your program, unpack the graphics and play the mod with a couple of lines... in many ways it is a dream. Easy to learn, difficult to master - but only partly because of the performance. I find i have to declare loads of variables as global, arrays can't be dynamically resized, if you want to implement any kind of data structure you find yourself peeking and poking directly into memory banks, and at that point you start to wonder if you shouldn't be using something else.

And with such arbitrary limitations, why only 8 screens? Why all the memory banks accessed by number? It's these kinds of things i find difficult to come back to after several years of C++, or even Asm.

It would be nice if AMOS could do things like
Code:
S = new Screen(320,256,16,lowres)
B = new Reserve as Chip(4096)
I've used AmosPro, C++ and Assembly. My biggest complaint about AmosPro is that you have to write in Assembly to be able to write an extension for the language. It's not OOP but rather, it's a separate programming paradigm called extensible programming.

OOP has been done to death and is fairly usable but being able to add commands to the language itself is just as useful as using a cryptic bunch of punctuation mark tokens in C++ designed to limit the number of keystrokes necessary to create common pieces of code.

Some of the limitations you described may be addressed in AmosPro 3.x but the real priority is fixing the bugs right now. At least AmosPro is open-source now including its entire programming environment. Most open-source C++ compiler sources don't include the editor and have a runtime library tied into the one that came with the OS. I'm just happy that AmigaOS didn't require a C++ programming library with the OS so we're free to use its features without being tied to a particular programming language.

Going back to the visual language idea, OS-based gadgets often have locale support built-in to the GUI framework. Using intelligent alternate-text for icons could make a graphical source code more readable to a blind person or somebody who doesn't use English as their mother-tongue.

This is my contribution to the BASIC vs. C++ vs. anything else thread.
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