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Old 23 April 2015, 15:10   #41
Thorham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsr View Post
It's not about if i like it or not, but it is unnecessarily. If you want to grab the alpha channel from a PNG and save it to BMP, then it's two click in IrfanView.
You could also just use Xnview to save images as IFF
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Old 23 April 2015, 17:52   #42
TCH
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Originally Posted by pandy71 View Post
It can as averaging (related to limited bandwidth) can't be ignored - this is main principle of dithering and noise shaping - thanks to this we have single bit high-end (32 bit) audio converters.
single bit ZD can be translated in genlock electronic to intermediate steps (analog) transparency even with hardswitching genlocks (as they have limited bandwidth/slew rate of switching) and even if they have bandwidth more than 7MHz still there is plenty of other bandlimiting filters (and there is temporal dithering available as option).
And how can ILBM store this? How will this work on my A500+
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Originally Posted by pandy71 View Post
Personally i don't care about noise when it provide better psychovisual effect. I was just curious about how Wu will perform against color spatial (as Your observations was contradictory to mine).
SCQ perform obviously better than Wu (15 colors provide picture closer to original) and with typical bandwidth for SCART input in regular TV (around 5 - 6MHz maximum) should provide better visual results thanks to averaging.
Algorithms like Wu provide good results with relatively high number of colors in CLUT (probably somewhere around 64 - 128 colors at least).
I'll put spatial quantization into PNG2ILBM as an option and i'll see in life, which produces better results on my 1084, with EHB. If you're right, then the overdiffused image of spatial quantization will look better on an old PAL monitor (which is my aim after all).
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You could also just use Xnview to save images as IFF
I tried to save IFF-s with XnView, but it only can save to IFF as 256-coloured grayscale. I've searched in google, in manual, tried to set the software, but no luck.

Beside, try to use use XnView on BSD or real Amiga. It only supports Linux and Mac OS X (and only the x86 versions on top of that).

Last edited by TCH; 23 April 2015 at 17:54. Reason: bad word order
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Old 23 April 2015, 18:08   #43
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I tried to save IFF-s with XnView, but it only can save to IFF as 256-coloured grayscale. I've searched in google, in manual, tried to set the software, but no luck.
Strange. Are you using a recent version? It should just work.

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Beside, try to use use XnView on BSD or real Amiga. It only supports Linux and Mac OS X (and only the x86 versions on top of that).
Yeah, sucks. For Amiga it would be nice if image processors like Adpro supported PNG. Some do, but the codecs are old.
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Old 23 April 2015, 18:48   #44
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Strange. Are you using a recent version? It should just work.
Latest.

Edit: Mystery solved. I tried the windows version of XnView in WINE and it can save a coloured ILBM. The Linux version cannot. Ultimate shame on the XnView team...
Still, XnView can only quantize to 2^n colours, don't support EHB, nor register preservation and it cannot quantize to a fix palette...
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Yeah, sucks. For Amiga it would be nice if image processors like Adpro supported PNG. Some do, but the codecs are old.
I only know one program, which can import (palette-based) PNG-s, it's PPaint, but the results are awful. Also it cannot quantize to EHB. (Nor XnView can.)

Last edited by TCH; 23 April 2015 at 19:02.
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Old 23 April 2015, 21:35   #45
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Originally Posted by jsr View Post
And how can ILBM store this? How will this work on my A500+
Based on this http://www.shikadi.net/moddingwiki/LBM_Format there is few opportunities but my point was only related to HW capabilities - as a software creator you are free to ignore any my comments.
And once again any new software for Amiga is more than appreciated.

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Originally Posted by jsr View Post
I'll put spatial quantization into PNG2ILBM as an option and i'll see in life, which produces better results on my 1084, with EHB. If you're right, then the overdiffused image of spatial quantization will look better on an old PAL monitor (which is my aim after all).
Same as earlier - purely up to You - from my experience SCQ produce superior results to any other known to me color quantization algorithm - it is slow, memory hog but for 16 colors hard to beat.
Once again Thank You.
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Old 23 April 2015, 23:37   #46
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I only know one program, which can import (palette-based) PNG-s, it's PPaint, but the results are awful. Also it cannot quantize to EHB. (Nor XnView can.)
I don't understand: a palette based picture is 8bit rgb, which is natively supported by PPaint on any 24 bit capable Amiga (AGA or RTG). How can the results being awful? Those pics should be pixel perfect. And i cannot remember any awful encounter during all the years.
And of course can PPaint recalc/remap palettes to EHB or simply a 64color palette. Please explain. PPaint also loads and remaps 24Bit PNGs without any problems.

It almost looks like you want to blame other people's software for the lack of hardware (gfx wise) on your side?
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Old 24 April 2015, 03:19   #47
TCH
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Originally Posted by pandy71 View Post
Based on this http://www.shikadi.net/moddingwiki/LBM_Format there is few opportunities but my point was only related to HW capabilities - as a software creator you are free to ignore any my comments.
You're referring to "Deep Images"? That's a native 24 or 32-bit picture, you cannot use that on a regular Amiga.
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Originally Posted by pandy71 View Post
Same as earlier - purely up to You - from my experience SCQ produce superior results to any other known to me color quantization algorithm - it is slow, memory hog but for 16 colors hard to beat.
We'll see. Do you happen to have a spatial algorithm, which is in C and not C++? I would like to avoid rewriting it.
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Once again Thank You.
You are welcome.
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Originally Posted by Cylon View Post
I don't understand: a palette based picture is 8bit rgb, which is natively supported by PPaint on any 24 bit capable Amiga (AGA or RTG).
And how does this relate to quantizing?
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Originally Posted by Cylon View Post
How can the results being awful?

(http://oscomp.hu/depot/ferrari1_pp.iff)


(http://oscomp.hu/depot/ferrari1_pp_d.iff)


(http://oscomp.hu/depot/ferrari1_png2ilbm.iff)
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Originally Posted by Cylon View Post
And of course can PPaint recalc/remap palettes to EHB or simply a 64color palette.
Either i remembered wrong, or it was an older PPaint, which did not supported it. PPaint 7.1 did; see above.
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Originally Posted by Cylon View Post
PPaint also loads and remaps 24Bit PNGs without any problems.
And how about 48-bit ones? 64? How about quantizing to a fix palette, or preserve/override colour registers?
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Originally Posted by Cylon View Post
It almost looks like you want to blame other people's software for the lack of hardware (gfx wise) on your side?
Nope.

Last edited by TCH; 24 April 2015 at 03:32. Reason: added dithered pic
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Old 24 April 2015, 14:45   #48
pandy71
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You're referring to "Deep Images"? That's a native 24 or 32-bit picture, you cannot use that on a regular Amiga.
Not likely, second BODY, CAMG Dual Playfield - i see some opportunities but once again - this is highly optional, probably never used by anyone from my perspective i would say don't bother - my comments was related purely to HW capabilities (and accordingly to my knowledge no existing software use this kind of features introduced in ECS but perhaps im wrong then it can be nice to see how it was solved).

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We'll see. Do you happen to have a spatial algorithm, which is in C and not C++? I would like to avoid rewriting it.
Nope, sorry.
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Old 24 April 2015, 21:22   #49
TCH
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Not likely, second BODY, CAMG Dual Playfield
A second BODY could be used for storing alpha, but still, nothing existsing stuff supports it. As for dual playfield, that's not good for this. 15 colour only and the foreplane's transparency is only shows the background, it's not that kind of transparency, which could be used for an alpha emulation.
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my comments was related purely to HW capabilities (and accordingly to my knowledge no existing software use this kind of features introduced in ECS but perhaps im wrong then it can be nice to see how it was solved).
I have no idea.
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Originally Posted by pandy71 View Post
Nope, sorry.
That's too bad. Because the spatial quantization sources are in C++, which puts a little object in my way. Namely, i have to learn C++ first, if i want to rewrite it. Since i'm already working on another stuff, it won't be done soon.

Last edited by TCH; 24 April 2015 at 21:22. Reason: chunk name
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