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Old 09 May 2017, 23:27   #21
neil324
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Debate, there doesn't seem to be one. You posting Tramiel in a negative light. Which does not seem fair in this insistence. Just putting it out there for others to see.
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Old 10 May 2017, 08:20   #22
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And you gave us just a video of his son saying that "he left because Gould was using Commodore's jet". And then you call this a proof.
From what i know there was a power struggle between the board of directors (whose chairman was Irvine Gould) and Tramiel and why? Because Tramiel was selling too cheap just to drive all competition out of the market, not making enough profit, taking advantage of Commodore's MOS department.
Trying to post Tramiel in a negative light? Better listen to this video at 5:00 and 10:10
[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 10 May 2017, 11:45   #23
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Yep, I read that about product pricing before.

But the fact is, at the point of Tramiel leaving CBM, CBM was at their peak as a business in their history before or after. It was all down hill from there. Even with the Amiga tech in their palms.

But back on too the subject of did Tramiel, leave or was he sacked. I guess we will never know, a case of make your own mind up. There is no conclusive proof. With either Tramiel or Gould ever commenting on the reason.

Last edited by neil324; 10 May 2017 at 12:54.
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Old 10 May 2017, 13:05   #24
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Tramiel himself said in a video interview that he left after an argument with Gould.
That interview was made shortly before he died, and since so many years have passed, I see no reason for him to lie about it.
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Old 10 May 2017, 13:33   #25
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They pushed him out of the door. That's why he was so angry too. Commodore was not his company anymore, but Irvine Gould held the strings. If he just left, by his own will, he would take it easy. And why would he leave a company so successful by his own will, a company that he created.

PS. Probably they did some things that humiliated him too, that's why he was not telling all truth and he said they just had an argument.
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Old 10 May 2017, 14:46   #26
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They hadn't seen eye to eye for a while, product pricing etc. The 'argument' what ever it was was the straw that broke the camels back. Tramiel then walked. The jet story fits in with Gould bleeding the company, something he done right up to it's bankruptcy.

He tried the beach retirement beach thing for while and according too reports was getting bored, Atari happened too call trying too off load the computer division. He didn't call them.
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Old 10 May 2017, 15:03   #27
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The jet story fits in with Gould bleeding the company, something he done right up to it's bankruptcy.
Gould bleeding the company? Lol, the company existed because of Gould pushing cash all the time to keep the company alive. He even paid 5 million dollars to acquire MOS and that was from his own money.
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Old 10 May 2017, 15:16   #28
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Yes and that's how it gained control of the company.
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Old 10 May 2017, 15:42   #29
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Doesn't mean that he didn't bleed the company or that Tramiel didn't object too it.
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Old 10 May 2017, 16:55   #30
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Doesn't mean that he didn't bleed the company or that Tramiel didn't object too it.
That is like saying a doctor who gives a life saving blood transfusion is "bleeding the patient" when the bills arrive. The Amiga, C64 and personal computer as we know it now may not even exist without Gould's funding. It is likely he should have stuck to financing and should have never hired Mehdi Ali. Perhaps Gould expected too many perks for his investment. It looks to me like he did some good and bad things much like Jack Tramiel. It looks like Mehdi Ali is a border line con artist who bled the company while providing a negative contribution during his whole stay with C=.
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Old 10 May 2017, 17:17   #31
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PS. Probably they did some things that humiliated him too, that's why he was not telling all truth and he said they just had an argument.
Were you there to witness all this?

None of the people who love to talk about this really know what went on, so I choose to believe the one person who actually experienced it (and his son).

Also, Gould is the reason of Commodore's demise, he started the chain reaction.
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Old 10 May 2017, 17:56   #32
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That is like saying a doctor who gives a life saving blood transfusion is "bleeding the patient" when the bills arrive. The Amiga, C64 and personal computer as we know it now may not even exist without Gould's funding. It is likely he should have stuck to financing and should have never hired Mehdi Ali. Perhaps Gould expected too many perks for his investment. It looks to me like he did some good and bad things much like Jack Tramiel. It looks like Mehdi Ali is a border line con artist who bled the company while providing a negative contribution during his whole stay with C=.
Of course Gould, the man who saved CBM and destroyed CBM.

They made a great team Gould and Tramiel. Shame they fell out. CBM might still be around today if they didn't.
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Old 10 May 2017, 18:34   #33
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Hm, off-topic and this only makes clean nobody really knows what went on.
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Old 10 May 2017, 20:01   #34
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Hm, off-topic and this only makes clean nobody really knows what went on.
Including the management at the time!

I guess the problem was that the visionaries and innovators were not high enough up in C=. What if a Jay Miner or a Chuck Peddle had been given more control? Did they understand economics and finance enough to be effective? How much was luck or the invisible hand a factor? Was C= just lucky in obtaining incredible talent and unlucky in squandering it? Are Amiga visionaries and talent still being squandered today?
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Old 10 May 2017, 21:05   #35
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Including the management at the time!

I guess the problem was that the visionaries and innovators were not high enough up in C=. What if a Jay Miner or a Chuck Peddle had been given more control? Did they understand economics and finance enough to be effective? How much was luck or the invisible hand a factor? Was C= just lucky in obtaining incredible talent and unlucky in squandering it? Are Amiga visionaries and talent still being squandered today?
Hm, well if we're going to speculate; I think Commodore would have gone the way of the dodo anyway. Commodore began as a typewriting company, and only entered the computer market because Tramiel was afraid of the Japanese strong competition. This is why Commodore entered the calculator business and as a result into the computer business.

MOS was bought because Commodore was afraid they could be cut of from their CPU source and Amiga was bought later on because they could not innovate enough themselves.

Just plain simple, Commodore placed sales first, innovation came only when they were afraid to lose their income. This is a too slow reaction to the very fast market of the home computer industry. There is no dishonour though, don't forget the home computer industry was very fast paced at that time, especially when you look at the market where Commodore started.

If a more creative or technical person would have had more control, they would still not go any other road, unless that person would have been firmly at the helm of the company. That might have changed some things, but "geeks" where not really seen as business men to get to that level I guess.
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Old 11 May 2017, 01:32   #36
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Hm, well if we're going to speculate; I think Commodore would have gone the way of the dodo anyway. Commodore began as a typewriting company, and only entered the computer market because Tramiel was afraid of the Japanese strong competition. This is why Commodore entered the calculator business and as a result into the computer business.
IBM had a similar business machine background and also entered the personal computer market (they were very late with an unimpressive but open product even though they were already in the big computer market and had a better reputation than C=). Entering the PC market was a natural progression of business machines as they became more sophisticated and cheaper. Businesses selling business machines either kept up with technology or they went the "way of the dodo". Pressure also came from TI entering the calculator and later PC business but they also survived.

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MOS was bought because Commodore was afraid they could be cut of from their CPU source and Amiga was bought later on because they could not innovate enough themselves.
C= was reliant on commodity products which it assembled into its own products. It did not own much technology and was dependent on its suppliers for its future. Acquiring MOS made them vertically integrated for manufacturing and supply efficiency and made them a technology player. They also acquired Chuck Peddle with MOS which allowed them to create the PET (first PC) and the very successful C64. The MOS acquisition was a brilliant move which made C= a leading technology company but they didn't seem to invest enough in R&D and their chip fabs fell behind in technology. The same happened with the Amiga after spotting and taking advantage of a good opportunity again. C= management seemed to be good at finding valuable acquisition opportunities but poor at integrating and developing them. It is easy to say C= management and leadership was a complete failure but they did enough right to put themselves in a fantastic position (IMO, not all luck) only to blow it big time. Some of this was probably because of upper management not understanding the technology they owned while they became complacent over-payed fat cats due to their early success.

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Just plain simple, Commodore placed sales first, innovation came only when they were afraid to lose their income. This is a too slow reaction to the very fast market of the home computer industry. There is no dishonour though, don't forget the home computer industry was very fast paced at that time, especially when you look at the market where Commodore started.
Yes, C= was very good at mass production but they had to figure out what to mass produce. The marketing part of this is difficult to predict but management successfully killed what little innovation they had with their low R&D budgets and even lower level managers not understanding the technology.

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If a more creative or technical person would have had more control, they would still not go any other road, unless that person would have been firmly at the helm of the company. That might have changed some things, but "geeks" where not really seen as business men to get to that level I guess.
There have been some technology "geeks" get to upper management. I have seen research that many of the people who seek upper management and political positions are borderline psychopaths. Jack Tramiel probably fits this profile not that he was all bad. There are probably geeky borderline psychopaths too. Steve Jobs? He wasn't as good as the legend either.
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Old 11 May 2017, 21:37   #37
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And you gave us just a video of his son saying that "he left because Gould was using Commodore's jet". And then you call this a proof.
From what i know there was a power struggle between the board of directors (whose chairman was Irvine Gould) and Tramiel and why? Because Tramiel was selling too cheap just to drive all competition out of the market, not making enough profit, taking advantage of Commodore's MOS department.
Trying to post Tramiel in a negative light? Better listen to this video at 5:00 and 10:10
[ Show youtube player ]
hahaha... and you listen and believe to this bunch of crying babies?

It is not surprise since RJ Mical and, passed, Dave Needle had bitter experience with their "first color gaming console" aka Atari Lynx. They did not like doing business with Jack so this is some kind of weird retribution of their own to Jack Tramiel.

On other hand, Dave Hayne admit that he just re-tell stories about Jack Tramiel that he heard (since he come to Commodore before Jack leave and had no contact with Jack) from his buddies RJ Mical and Dave Needle.

However, they, RJ Mical and Dave Needle, really managed to portrait Jack Tramiel as a mega-vilan in Amiga users minds, and others, since they use every opportunity to spit on him.

Quote:
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They pushed him out of the door. That's why he was so angry too. Commodore was not his company anymore, but Irvine Gould held the strings. If he just left, by his own will, he would take it easy. And why would he leave a company so successful by his own will, a company that he created.
Because he could run company as he would like and think it is the best.
He was super-angry since he spent DECADES in building company and than lost control of it. Wouldn't you?

btw nobody, better listen to neil324 and stop spreading RJ Mical and Dave Needle propaganda!

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I guess the problem was that the visionaries and innovators were not high enough up in C=. What if a Jay Miner or a Chuck Peddle had been given more control?
Good question!
Regarding Chuck Peddle: http://oldcomputers.net/victor9000.html

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Originally Posted by matthey View Post
Did they understand economics and finance enough to be effective? How much was luck or the invisible hand a factor? Was C= just lucky in obtaining incredible talent and unlucky in squandering it?
Chuck Peddle insisted to build "office computing" while Jack Tramiel pushed for low-cost, "every home to have a computer" mantra (something that Bill Snakes brag that was his vision (WTF?!) with 120$ MS-DOS) so we get Vic20 and C64, and later Atari ST. They were: "best product for best price" (like Jack used to say).

---
I will take a break to read rest of comments.
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Old 12 May 2017, 07:14   #38
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@kovacm Seems you don't really know anything about Commodore and Jack Tramiel.
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Old 12 May 2017, 07:54   #39
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Commodore boat under Tramiel management was sinking since the 60's, then Irvine Gould came onboard and started injecting millions of dollars to Tramiel's company and eventually Irvine Gould took control (should he drop millions and give the company to Tramiel as a gift?). He was controlling Commodore since the 70's. But Gould didn't care to leave Tramiel to run the company as a one man show and his own combat school aggressive style.

Tramiel's strategy was simple: since we have MOS (that Irvine Gould bought) to build chips for us for almost free we can drop the price to a record low to push the competition out of the market (Tramiel's quote "business is war and i want to win"), plus the fact that so many companies did work with Tramiel and got burned in the past and almost no one wanted to do business with him again.
So the board of directors wasn't happy because he didn't make enough money for their investment because of his aggressive strategies to sent home the competition.
Tramiel was famous for making a product and then no upgrade it, and jump to the next one. So if he was onboard when they had the Amiga, they would cut corners here and there, produce an inferior product that was a tad better than the competition and jump to the next one.

Commodore went down due to Mehdi Ali strategies, announce the next level Amiga (AGA) too short without having actually produced massive numbers of new machines so they created a vacuum, no one wanted ECS machines anymore but they didn't also have AGA machines to supply that people wanted. So no one was buying ECS and they went out of cash. No one was supplying parts to Commodore to build AGA machines due to massive debts so (no parts, no money, no demand for existing ECS stock) they created a black hole that finally absorbed and killed the company.\

PS. About the Lynx, Epyx sold it to Atari after RJ Mical, Dave Morse and Dave Needle had created it. Even though beeing the first color handheld and quite good design it was a massive failure in Tramiel's hands, as all companies that had signed with Epyx to supply parts at low price and support the system fled when Tramiel took control.

They had previous experience with Tramiel and his Atari and had got burned badly.

Last edited by nobody; 12 May 2017 at 08:20.
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Old 12 May 2017, 11:23   #40
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However, they, RJ Mical and Dave Needle, really managed to portrait Jack Tramiel as a mega-vilan in Amiga users minds, and others, since they use every opportunity to spit on him.
Not half as much as they spit on Irving Gould or Mehdi Ali.
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