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Old 25 March 2015, 03:44   #81
Mark Wright
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I find this whole endeavour to be extremely unseemly. Shame on the Cauldfields who, to my mind, are a couple of marketing-scam chancers. They're now carried away, having previously and excitedly hit upon a means of extracting money from gullible enthusiasts, milking their supporters for all they're worth, intent on pushing their luck with us lot.

"From Bedrooms to Billions" is appalling. It's a directionless, needlessly low-budget (given the money raised) compilation of talking heads, free from any sort of narrative or obvious love for the subject matter. It's aggressively marketed; anyone fool enough to pay for it (like me) is treated to a constant barrage of emails asking for more money to watch premium-priced "exclusive extras". It wasn't cheap to see (or own) in the first place.

The Cauldfields are possibly the worst people to be making a film about the Amiga. They have no love for their subject matter. They merely want to exploit the likes of you and I.

This may have been acceptable ten years ago when such projects would have been viewed as a novelty, and we'd all have been grateful for anything. However, in 2015, surely we're all media savvy enough to translate the Cauldfield's hideous bold-type large-font marketing speak such as "COME ON EVERYONE JUST A FEW MORE BACKERS TO GO!!!! LOOK!! WE'LL GIVE YOU THIS STICKER!!!!!" ..as.. "HAHAHAHAH!!! LOOK AT ALL THOSE AUTISTIC FOOLS SOON PARTED WITH THEIR MONEY!!!!!"

I'll be giving it a wide berth. We could all do better ourselves if we put our minds to it, without lining the pockets of loveless profiteers.
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Old 25 March 2015, 07:32   #82
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A bit harsh I think.
It takes effort to make a film. An AMIGA film won't just appear out of the blue. They are making an effort, the other AMIGA doc has been years in the making so you can see how much it takes for very small groups to produce something. We will get a product for the money and it will be entertaining.
The cost is ok when you look at other things. Trip to the cinema - 7, RetroGamer 5, The AMIGA bookazine 10.
The 'tat' perks are annoying but they said an extra half hour is 10k so the other perks are just fillers to space out the increments.
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Old 25 March 2015, 17:49   #83
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Well put Higgy.

I highlighted this concern in larger text in my post above, and I know this is a concern. I dont work for the devs, but I can tell you they are always very up-front and honest in my daily rants and pokes, and I know they are still genuine fans of the C64 and the Amiga from back in the day, so this is a fan project. Its an organised one, sure, by people who know how to make and release a movie, but I'd rather trust these guys to deliver than a bunch of youtubers. Look what happened with the AVGN Movie kickstarter. THAT WAS a waste of cash.

Of course everyone must have their opinion. If I am so passionate to love this, there must be others equally just as passionate to hate this to death. As far as bold text goes, I did much of this myself, so that people can skim read the important words and string together the meaning of a whole lot of text at a glance. The devs now use it and I have to hold it back sometimes when they go crazy, but I think you can see where my bold has been used to boil down their points to a line or sentence.

As said, I would rather my money is going towards an Amiga film than spend 30 on a night out or tickets to the cinema, and with 2 coming out soon, I dont think there will be any more funded movies like this ever.
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Old 25 March 2015, 19:17   #84
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At the risk of stiring contention, I hope you guys dont mind if I post the last few backer updates on here. They are only for backers usually, so please take this into consideration.

**COME TO 1ST PREVIEW SCREENING!**

Quote:
Hi all,

A few backers have written to us with a very good idea which should be both a lot of fun and a very useful way to help reach our stretch goals.

For our last film we showed a very early ‘rough cut’ of the film at a cinema and many backers came along joined by several cast members from the film. Then afterwards we had a Q&A session on stage where the audience could discuss the film.

Creatively we found this not only highly enjoyable but also very useful to the film itself as some very useful points were made, some of which helped us in our final editing sessions before the film was finished. There was also a bar and afterwards many stayed behind to have a drink (or two) with ourselves and cast members, still talking about the film.

Therefore after several of you have written suggesting this again we have decided to this time offer the opportunity to all of you now. We will hold an early preview screening of ‘The Amiga Years! At a cinema in London. It will be a fantastic opportunity for you to see an early cut of the film before it’s completion in the company of the Directors and some of the film cast and then take part in a Q&A session and join us for a drink afterwards at the bar. Anyone present will also receive an exclusive 'one off' VIP press pack commemorating the event!

If you would like to be part of the film making process itself simply increase your pledge by 95. We have decided to not limit this for the time being as we want to see what the interest is like as obviously we can hire a bigger cinema if needed. You may buy more than one ticket, obviously slide your pledge up per number of tickets you may want.

At time of writing we are just 7.5k away from hitting 80k. Hitting it means we would be giving you 2.5 hours of content, so out of 1,800 backers if just 75 of you decided to come along to this wonderful ‘Amiga' event in London, get a unique press pack and be the first to see an early cut of the film along with cast members and ourselves we would hit that goal!

We hope to see you there!

Best wishes,

Ant & Nic
Yes, increase your pledge by 95 and it will appear on their radar as a backer confirming tickets. I just asked about this and its because rewards may be 25 (etc) plus the tickets at 95, so a backer given any reward must add 95. I hope that makes some sense.
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Old 26 March 2015, 14:31   #85
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SIXTY NINE DUDE!!

69 Hours to go!

1,830 backers
74,127 pledged of the 80,000 2.5 hour stretch goal
69 hours to go!
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Old 27 March 2015, 04:42   #86
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A bit harsh I think.
Point taken. I was in a particularly grumpy mood when I posted my comments above, but I stand by the thrust of what I was saying.

I'm prepared to accept that it's just me who finds all of this juvenile hard-sell "COME ON GUYS!!! WOOP!!" marketeering to be an insult to one's intelligence. I'm too long in the tooth to be whipped up into a frenzy by - what I see as - the most base of transparently cynical money-grabbing tactics. But hey, the cash is coming in, so I'm clearly in a minority. Good luck to the makers and those who have pledged alike.

Call me old-fashioned, but I respond much more positively when talked TO than when talked AT. And to me, this serves as the perfect case in point. Us wise old birds of EAB will make up a sizeable portion of the potential target audience for this film, but will our vast collective resource of knowledge be tapped in order to assist in its making? Or will it be just another overpriced cash-in aimed at hopeless nostalgics: "ANOTHER 2000 FOR FREE KEYRING!!"

Tch. I've gone grumpy again. Sorry about that. I suppose I just react badly to blatant hype and over-promotion. I'd love for this to be the definitive account of "The Amiga Years" that we've all been waiting for - a joyous film that would make us so proud that we'd have goosebumps and a constant fuzzy feeling inside as we watched. That's the one I'm waiting for. I'd happily pay over the odds towards its making and contribute my time for free. Wouldn't we all?
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Old 27 March 2015, 14:11   #87
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Opens popcorn...

On a lighter note: @Mark Wright I think this (and Viva La AMIGA) are going to be the best we are going to get. The audience is pretty small, out of the the whole Retro Gaming section, AMIGA owners/lovers are going to be a smaller proportion.

We don't have time on our side, we have already lost Jay Miner. I can't really see another resurgence in Retro Gaming that will feature the AMIGA. Next time it happens it's going to be all about the '3D revolution' PS & Saturn etc.

I know what you mean about the hard sell. I know what I am paying and am sticking by my guns. But I think it is sort of necessary, small market and needing the money to actually make the thing etc. I initally thought they already had the footage, but they have said that it is background footage they have rather than all the interviews etc.

I've been recently organising little retro gaming events. And with a few notices placed up I was expecting the place to be packed out. But it was not. Just because I lap up retro stuff there are lots of others that need tempting/forcing so I can see a bit better now why they are doing what they are doing.

As I said don't worry, it will be entertaining and for 10 in order to own the film, I am sure very few will think they have been hard done by.

Fingers and toes crossed that more documentaries will appear in my lifetime!

Cheers
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Old 27 March 2015, 22:17   #88
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81,302 at the time of writing this so at least there is now 2.5 hours of content. That's the bare minumum I was hoping for so I'm fairly happy with that. Three hours would be nice.
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Old 28 March 2015, 02:39   #89
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I can't help but thinking that both BTB and this Amiga years documentary have suffered from old school thinking and not listening to what the punters want. Let me explain.

Let's say they filmed 50 hours worth of interviews for B2B. Arguments such as "if we wanted to put in all the good stuff, it'd be 10 hours long" were made. And I bet if you asked anyone who funded it "do you want to see more, even if it's raw footage" I bet the answer would be "hell yes".

They must be sitting on a tonne of great footage that people are no doubt dying to see. Can you imagine any Rob Hubbard fan that wouldn't want to see the entire raw 1-2 hour interview with him? Or Martin Galway? Geoff Crammond?

And on the Amiga side, who wouldn't want to see the entire interview with legends like Shaun Southern, Chris Huelsbeck, David Whitaker, Ocean France, the Reflections guys, Digital Illusions, Team 17 guys. Hell, I'd even love to see an interview with Tiertex as long as they were put under the pump for at least some of it!

This old Hollywood style "a movie should be about 2 hours long" thinking is obsolete. We live in a digital world now. If one of the funding levels was a "raw footage of interviews with various people" included (and it wouldn't have to be cleaned up or anything added, no stock footage required) then I am sure a lot of others would be interested in it.

But sadly it appears that all the interview footage taken will just sit on the cutting room floor. You only have to look at how many people have watched the [ Show youtube player ] presentation (over 100,000 views) to see there's a lot of interest.

Just imagine an alternate Kickstarter campaign like so without all the postcards, stickers and other crap. Digital only bidders could double their bid to 20 pounds to get say 5-10 raw interviews, costing only bandwidth.

50k = 1.5 hour movie
53k = Includes download of full 1 hour+ interview with Chris Huelsbeck
56k = Includes download of full 1 hour+ interview with Shaun Southern
60k = 2 hour movie
63k = Includes download of full 1 hour+ interview with Reflections
66k = Includes download of full 1 hour+ interview with Tiertex
70k = 2.5 hour movie
73k = Includes download of full 1 hour+ interview with Factor 5
76k = Includes download of full 1 hour+ interview with Richard Aplin
80k = 3 hour movie

You get the point. The bonus levels would cost practically nothing, compared with costs for making and sending postcards, beermats etc. Physical medium users could get a 2nd or 3rd Bluray/DVD of all the interviews. People would be getting value for money! I would invest in a heartbeat!
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Old 28 March 2015, 08:46   #90
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@Codetapper - this is true. I mean who here has watched all the grainy/fuzzy footage of AMIGA content on YouTube and thought about the quality. For us content and any mention of AMIGA is key.
However... I can see that B2B do have a good style and they want to release a commercial looking product.
There are plenty of people who like AMIGA but don't go onto any forums or even have rebought one, so those types would want a decent looking and well made product.
They said that content after 2.5 hrs would be just Special Edition type video nuggets not footage added into the main film, so getting a 2.5 hr film we have all done well.
Also i guess B2B in the future would like to grow or get contracts off the TV Networks to produce (all sorts of) TV content. So they are out to make a good impression and maybe releasing raw footage would not help?
I pledged more than the 10, but 10 for a 2.5hr AMIGA doc is great value. And I thank B2B for doing this.
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Old 28 March 2015, 16:56   #91
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@ Mark Wright - hey there, I just wanted to say I didnt reply to you directly as I have no issue with your views, but I felt your concerns should be put to the devs. I dont ever forward anything to the devs, as they are so busy right now even emails take ages to come back, but I forwarded your post to them. I think it is fair the devs get to know all the story from all sides and I welcome extreme views as ways forward. I also wanted to apologise for two reasons, firstly, I should have made it clear from the start that I was posting backers newsletters on here. The newsletters talk to pledgers directly, so of course they will be chirpy and bouncy and positive. Secondly, I want to apologise for being so eager to post them. I get carried away like a tornado sometimes, and I can see I was hammering the point rather too often with my enthusiasm for this. Its a fault perhaps that I just dont know when to stop. I always try to see the positive in everything though.

@ codetapper/higgy - I couldnt agree more. After the B2B project I said they should have everything online very much like the EmmyTVLegends.org, and I suggested I could set this up and run it if needs be, but so far they are being carried away in other directions. I hope in the long run, these perfect insights into history will all be available to everyone (perhaps for a token fee .50p to cover hosting costs?), so this will stand for all time. I think an Amiga Shrine is well overdue and this footage could be the heart of it. Perhaps the devs will put out some material (uncut, no editing) once all this is over, but at the moment they may still need bits for The Amiga Years. Personally I love long uncut interviews.

@ ALL - Congratulations, we made it to 85k. With still over a day to go, if we wake up to find the total is 95k tomorrow, there is a great chance we'll hit the 100 and get an hours bonus disc, and then who knows. I am happy they made the 80K, everything else is a bonus as far as I'm concerned; although it does look like Subs will be reached at least, and thats great for everyone.
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Old 28 March 2015, 19:32   #92
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I just heard the devs have secured more items; such as Factor 5 huge wall mount collages and signed Signed Turrican Anthology CDs from Chris Hulsbeck.

The backers post is too long to re-post here, and has lots of pictures too, so here's a link.

Latest Backers Newsletter:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1181073
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Old 29 March 2015, 13:08   #93
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ARGGHHHH!! 10 minutes to go and only 500 for all backers to receive a FLOPPY DISK BEER MAT!!!!

7 minutes.... 400 needed....

5 minutes.... 300 needed....

3 minutes.... 106 needed only!!

2 minutes.... 51 TO GO!!

HURRAH!! with just a minute to go we have reached 95,209!!

FINISHED!! 95,299.... And we have a floppy disk beer mat each!

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Old 29 March 2015, 17:19   #94
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Quote:
Hi all,

Well we did it, you have believed in us and this film and we will put all our efforts in to make the best possible film for you all, of that we assure you!



We are a little shattered this morning, as I'm sure some of you are...especially those who tracked the progress of the floppy beer-mat which we are very happy to say we also secured.

Please see below the final stretch goal progress chart, it has been an incredible last 72 hours and ticked off quite a few that will really make this project special. So please let's all rest up, and pat ourselves on the back because we've got work to do...well we have...you just get to watch!

FINAL PROGRESS CHART HERE

THANK YOU!

Best wishes,

Ant & Nic
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Old 01 October 2015, 01:35   #95
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Well, FWIW, I just did a 2.5hr interview shoot with Anthony this morning for the "Amiga years" sequel and he was very amiable and asked some pretty good (well researched) questions. Anthony dialed in via Skype video chat (sensibly saving a lot of money) and hired a local freelance cameraman (I'm in San Francisco) who came round on time with a bunch of quality camera+sound gear and did a great job; clapperboard, radio mic, took care to get all the lighting right; the works. It worked out great; everyone seemed to know exactly what they were doing; friendly, professional and well prepared.

I can't vouch for the entertainment value of my segment (or how much of it will survive the edit) but I can't imagine anyone doing such an interview any better than they did. It sounds like they've gathered a decent list of interesting people.

Next time I should probably wear clothes though.
Rich
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Old 01 October 2015, 01:43   #96
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Well, that's good enough for me. If the Jeff Minter of the Amiga's "Jeff Minter of the Amiga" is on board, then so am I.

Now how do I put this flicker-fixer into fleshtone-pixelator mode...?
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Old 01 October 2015, 02:26   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichAplin View Post
I can't vouch for the entertainment value of my segment (or how much of it will survive the edit) but I can't imagine anyone doing such an interview any better than they did. It sounds like they've gathered a decent list of interesting people.

Next time I should probably wear clothes though.
Rich
I wish it was possible to see the raw footage, as your segment will probably be cut to about 3 minutes and then there's basically 2 and a half hours of possibly gold footage going to waste.

I re-iterate my earlier point about these kinds of films - I wish they had said "the movie will be 2.5 hours" and there will be digital downloads of all the raw footage as extras for backers. A real shame that most of your content will never be seen.
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Old 01 October 2015, 05:27   #98
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Originally Posted by Mark Wright View Post
I find this whole endeavour to be extremely unseemly. Shame on the Cauldfields who, to my mind, are a couple of marketing-scam chancers. They're now carried away, having previously and excitedly hit upon a means of extracting money from gullible enthusiasts, milking their supporters for all they're worth, intent on pushing their luck with us lot.

"From Bedrooms to Billions" is appalling. It's a directionless, needlessly low-budget (given the money raised) compilation of talking heads, free from any sort of narrative or obvious love for the subject matter. It's aggressively marketed; anyone fool enough to pay for it (like me) is treated to a constant barrage of emails asking for more money to watch premium-priced "exclusive extras". It wasn't cheap to see (or own) in the first place.
[...]
I'll be giving it a wide berth. We could all do better ourselves if we put our minds to it, without lining the pockets of loveless profiteers.
Mark, if you really think "From Bedrooms to Billions" is appaling then I will be very happy to help you part from it and buy your version (if it is a physical copy and is in a good physical condition).

When I buy a product I end up not liking I re-sell it as soon as possible to someone who likes it and go buy another one I like in its place. So I would be very happy to help you achieve the same by being "scammed" in your place and thus help you recoup your loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codetapper View Post
I can't help but thinking that both BTB and this Amiga years documentary have suffered from old school thinking and not listening to what the punters want. Let me explain.

Let's say they filmed 50 hours worth of interviews for B2B. Arguments such as "if we wanted to put in all the good stuff, it'd be 10 hours long" were made. And I bet if you asked anyone who funded it "do you want to see more, even if it's raw footage" I bet the answer would be "hell yes".

They must be sitting on a tonne of great footage that people are no doubt dying to see. Can you imagine any Rob Hubbard fan that wouldn't want to see the entire raw 1-2 hour interview with him? Or Martin Galway? Geoff Crammond?

And on the Amiga side, who wouldn't want to see the entire interview with legends like Shaun Southern, Chris Huelsbeck, David Whitaker, Ocean France, the Reflections guys, Digital Illusions, Team 17 guys. Hell, I'd even love to see an interview with Tiertex as long as they were put under the pump for at least some of it!

This old Hollywood style "a movie should be about 2 hours long" thinking is obsolete. We live in a digital world now. If one of the funding levels was a "raw footage of interviews with various people" included (and it wouldn't have to be cleaned up or anything added, no stock footage required) then I am sure a lot of others would be interested in it.
You are absolutely right. I would even be very happy to pay double the price to have access to the raw footage.
There is a lot of useful information in this footage which is of interest to only a fraction of their audience but is of enormous value for this particular fraction.

I understand that they have to filter out content to paint a short-enough coherent image for a "mainstream Amiga" audience but the raw footage is of enormous interest to the "non mainstream" Amiga enthusiasts. This said, it is pretty clear that it would cost them a lot more to make it available for download or include on physical media so this cannot possibly be made available for free.

Quote:
But sadly it appears that all the interview footage taken will just sit on the cutting room floor. You only have to look at how many people have watched the [ Show youtube player ] presentation (over 100,000 views) to see there's a lot of interest.

Just imagine an alternate Kickstarter campaign like so without all the postcards, stickers and other crap. Digital only bidders could double their bid to 20 pounds to get say 5-10 raw interviews, costing only bandwidth.
[...]
You get the point. The bonus levels would cost practically nothing, compared with costs for making and sending postcards, beermats etc. Physical medium users could get a 2nd or 3rd Bluray/DVD of all the interviews. People would be getting value for money! I would invest in a heartbeat!
This is absolutely sensible but if raw footage is say ten times the size of non raw so it would cost ten times more as well, not just one half or one third more. But if people want to pay for it they should definitely offer it, what do they have to lose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichAplin View Post
Well, FWIW, I just did a 2.5hr interview shoot with Anthony this morning for the "Amiga years" sequel and he was very amiable and asked some pretty good (well researched) questions. [...]

I can't vouch for the entertainment value of my segment (or how much of it will survive the edit) but I can't imagine anyone doing such an interview any better than they did. It sounds like they've gathered a decent list of interesting people.
Rich
Damn, I did not realize you were part of the interviewees and I must say that this is a fantastic news!

Although I must confess I used to have a quite negative opinion of several of the games you coded I do have a very high esteem of your work and skills and value highly your contribution to the Amiga ecosystem. I understand that the conditions these games were ported in were less than ideal and that the end results would have been much different if US Gold had not been hey... well... themselves.

I hope you had a chance to talk about precisely that by the way, but I guess I will know when watching the result.

Last edited by ReadOnlyCat; 01 October 2015 at 05:54. Reason: Added reply to CodeTapper's suggestion and Richard Aplin.
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Old 01 October 2015, 07:10   #99
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I don't think "all the raw footage would cost a lot more" is really the case; I suspect that most of the money is in paying the people-costs; the camera-people, the Caulfields, chasing all the interviewees down, organizing it all, there's plenty of (very reasonable) costs incurred. Certainly the time in the editing ... but then the raw footage by definition doesn't need so much work on it. The cost of digitally distributing video, even HD, is trivial. If people really _really_ want to watch the raw (well, nearly raw) footage and are prepared to pay a premium for it, then... it doesn't seem an unreasonable thing to offer. On the other hand, perhaps the makers aren't inclined to offer this for their own artistic reasons; they'd rather put a more polished, cohesive, reasonably-watchable narrative. I'd guess they'll end up with maybe what 40? 60? hours of raw talking-head footage which would be undigestable for anyone but the most ardent retro fanboy.

I don't have a strong opinion either way - and I'm certainly not inclined to criticize the makers for their choices because what they're doing is infinitely better than doing nothing. Perhaps they'd be receptive to the idea of putting the raw footage online (behind some sort of paywall, fair enough) for super-fans who are prepared to pay a little extra for the option to see every single word that was uttered by every interviewee? Who knows - why not ask them?

Also, you'd be surprised how little I care what people think about the games I coded 25 years ago - not being an asshole about it, I mean it's really not a big deal to me on the scale of things; I spent maybe 6-9 months on a typical game at that time and there were compromises, some forced on me by hardware or company management, some things I'd do better if I did it again, whatever; I've done lots of things in my career; most of which are lesser known than, say, Invade-a-load on the C64.

I worked on one thing a few years ago (took about 12 months) which as of right this second has (...runs quick SQL query...) 51,534,092 users - more than the combined total sales of all the home computers I ever touched - and none of the end-users know I built it. ..also spent six months of this year on a very intricate and complicated reverse-engineering (and re-engineering) job which was immensely technically interesting, and less than a dozen people will ever know or care about.

Ok that's a lot of "I" but what I'm trying to say is that really it's all just geekin' and as a lifelong coder the personal reward is in the geekery ;-)

Cheers,
Rich

Last edited by TCD; 01 October 2015 at 08:11. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged.
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Old 01 October 2015, 08:12   #100
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I don't think "all the raw footage would cost a lot more" is really the case; I suspect that most of the money is in paying the people-costs; the camera-people, the Caulfields, chasing all the interviewees down, organizing it all, there's plenty of (very reasonable) costs incurred. Certainly the time in the editing ... but then the raw footage by definition doesn't need so much work on it. The cost of digitally distributing video, even HD, is trivial. If people really _really_ want to watch the raw (well, nearly raw) footage and are prepared to pay a premium for it, then... it doesn't seem an unreasonable thing to offer.
You are right, download costs or physical media costs are almost negligible in the mix and I should have realized that since that's been the case in video games for quite some time already. Sometimes I just can't think straight.

Quote:
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I don't have a strong opinion either way - and I'm certainly not inclined to criticize the makers for their choices because what they're doing is infinitely better than doing nothing. Perhaps they'd be receptive to the idea of putting the raw footage online (behind some sort of paywall, fair enough) for super-fans who are prepared to pay a little extra for the option to see every single word that was uttered by every interviewee? Who knows - why not ask them?
Absolutely, and that's why I backed the project rather than not.
And actually I will send them an email via Kickstarter about it, we'll see what comes out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichAplin View Post
Also, you'd be surprised how little I care what people think about the games I coded 25 years ago - not being an asshole about it, I mean it's really not a big deal to me on the scale of things; I spent maybe 6-9 months on a typical game at that time and there were compromises, some forced on me by hardware or company management, some things I'd do better if I did it again, whatever; I've done lots of things in my career; most of which are lesser known than, say, Invade-a-load on the C64.
[...]
Ok that's a lot of "I" but what I'm trying to say is that really it's all just geekin' and as a lifelong coder the personal reward is in the geekery ;-)[
The journey is the reward indeed and I have seen on several threads here that you can indeed take negative criticism with the appropriate measure of salt but I must take (very slight) issue with your "how little I care" statement since I cannot believe you are equally insensitive to positive feedback. A grump who makes an uninformed statement about one of your games can be safely ignored but someone who says they have fond memories of playing it surely does trigger less neutral feelings I presume?

Even geeks like to know they made people happy.
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