EAB/Lemon Super League 2015: Round 1 - SWIV

[Graham Humphrey]

EAB/Lemon Super League 2015: Round 1 - SWIV

Starts: 00:01 January 18 Finishes: 23:59 February 7

Rules

Post a picture of your score here with the score written underneath. Enter as often as you like. Only scores achieved during the round's time frame count.

No cheating of any kind (including score leeching) - this includes save states. No continues/passwords allowed. If you suspect anyone of cheating please let us know in private - anyone found guilty will be banned for the entire season.

You must play as the helicopter in one-player mode only.

Remember, anyone can join in at any time. Have fun and feel free to ask any questions you may have.

Downloads

- ADF
- WHDLoad-installed

Extras

- Full rules and FAQ (incorporating the Hall of Fame)
- Lemon thread
- Live League Ladder

[mailman]

166,380

[BlackOceans]

547,570

[mailman]

A new participant. Welcome to our gamers' league.

[mihcael]

Not new. Maybe just hasn't played for while.

[BlackOceans]

Originally Posted by mihcael

Not new. Maybe just hasn't played for while.

Yeah, I played a few rounds in 2013 and one round in 2014. Will try to stick around for longer this time.

SWIV happens to be my favourite Amiga shoot em up, so I'll definitely dedicate some time to it and then I'll see what comes up next

[Harry]

737.800

I find this game nice, although I completed it only once without cheat mode.
Came up to 60% in the 3rd serious try, which is a bit over average for me. I havent played it for some time.

[vagrant]

536,220
I also haven't played in a long time.. at least 10 years!
So from what I can tell, if you continue the score will temporarily reset - however when it's game over it still keeps your best score in memory?

[lifeschool]

Originally Posted by ED-209

if you continue..when it's game over it still keeps your best score in memory?

Sorry to step in here but Continues are not allowed. This is in bold for a reason. The score for later enemies is worth more, so it would be possible for a player to gain much more (perhaps double) the score if they got far on their third of fourth continue vs their earlier scores, and a Continue, by design, makes scores unrepresentative - as the player plays on a difference stretch of road to the other truckers.

As I always say, lets see the screenshot clearly to prove your score, and there is no reason why you cant prove a score by showing your remaining continues (the number next to the star icon) on your screenshot, as the game shows this information during the exit sequence. Like Harry's and Mailman.

@ ED-209 - as your screenshot doesnt show your continues, and you insinuated you did use them at some point, maybe its better to ignore this little score for now. There is a long long road still left in this round, so I am 100% sure with a knife between your teeth, you'll try hard to beat the game. Good luck man.

Moral of the story: Lets see those score bars!

[vagrant]

The reason I bought it up is because I continued by accident which is pretty easy to do.. I didn't know I was on my last life and if you keep fire held down then it continues without warning.
I figured the score was lost anyway so I killed myself

Also I don't see any point in continuing.. other than to get practice in for a good run from the beginning of the game.

[lifeschool]

No worries, I know its an issue which could catch some out. I tried to make a point of this on the lemon forums with my 'playguide' section. Basically its good to get into the habit of releasing fire whenever you lose a life just in case its the last one. This means the player doesnt shoot straight away but they have invulnerability so it not so hard to keep going.

As regards using continues to train on later sections, I'm sure there is a rule somewhere. I dont see a difference in using continues or unlimited lives or savestates to train. This is slight different from using a longplay to see how its done. I dont know how the other mods feel, but I try to avoid training.

[Harry]

Originally Posted by lifeschool

As regards using continues to train on later sections, I'm sure there is a rule somewhere. I dont see a difference in using continues or unlimited lives or savestates to train. This is slight different from using a longplay to see how its done. I dont know how the other mods feel, but I try to avoid training.

Im not a mod, but I want to express my opinion too. If you think this to the end, you would have to rule out all players who ever played this with cheat mode. (I for myself play many games from time to time with unlimited lives because I want to see the graphics and sound of a game in a relaxing way, and not achieve a high score, and thus have clearly an advantage because I know roughly the levels.)

I would rather bind this to the accessibility: If the game offers the possibility of continues or cheats, the player can use this to train, but must not submit these scores. Savestates are a different matter, because this can be used only by UAE or Action Replay users and locks other users out.

My 2 cents,
Harry.

[BlackOceans]

Not much improvement, just to show the score bar:

562,520

[mihcael]

Originally Posted by lifeschool

As regards using continues to train on later sections, I'm sure there is a rule somewhere. I dont see a difference in using continues or unlimited lives or savestates to train. This is slight different from using a longplay to see how its done. I dont know how the other mods feel, but I try to avoid training.

No rule. Continues are fine to train, they are a part of many games.

Using games cheats to train? i haven't thought about that one, but they are also a part of the game in many cases. Using intro trainers? Probably the same.

I personally would rank watching longplays above using continues to train, as a form of gaining advantage.

[lifeschool]

Thanks for the clarification Mike, I completely understand if the person is going to continue they may as well use the cheat to go through the whole game. I understand this is perfectly allowed as long as they dont post their scores, so I wont make this a huge point of it. But unless everybody does this, I still feel some gain an advantage over others. I'd rather 'train' by playing the game each day, from the start, with no fancy business. I even refuse to watch a longplay. The only reason I might, is if I am good enough to get to the bosses, and if I struggle to get beyond them. I realise that as a co-mod I must have the impeccable record and set a good example. Its up to the players to have their own judgement.

@ mike - I would rank watching a longplay below using trainers, simply because SWIV is partly random. The game makes itself harder by making the enemies take more hits with the best tokens collected, and sometimes the game makes it easier by not spawning some enemies at random, like the 4 rocket turrets next with the one in the middle, if the player is struggling, so there is no substitute for playing the game and gaining confidence in playability; over watching someone complete it. Longplays can help the player learn 'tricks', but as a certain lemon player has already written in asking about the bubble trick with the geese, despite watching my video, it seems watching a longplay is of small value.

BlackOceans - Cool. Thank You. Your entry gave you an extra point closer to Harry now with 16.
I hope to get closer to your score soon, but I've been practising the lower stages and keep making ridiculous or unavoidable mistakes.

[BlackOceans]

Originally Posted by lifeschool

I would rank watching a longplay below using trainers, simply because SWIV is partly random. The game makes itself harder by making the enemies take more hits with the best tokens collected, and sometimes the game makes it easier by not spawning some enemies at random, like the 4 rocket turrets next with the one in the middle, if the player is struggling

After 15-20 attempts since sunday I don't think this is actually random at all. There seems to be a rank system implemented, depending on current firepower, remaining lives and perhaps other factors like the enemies destroyed/escaped ratio. (There's a section in SWIV that's an obvious tribute to Xevious and it was the first shoot em up to introduce the concept of rank, based on "destruction ratio", ie. the number of enemies destroyed relative to the in-game progress)

Things affected by rank are:
- number of enemies
- number of bullets they shoot
-"hitpoints" of some enemies
- number of rocket turrets activating

I experimented a bit, trying for example to avoid picking up a final "V" power up and using only 4-spread. Counterintuitively this seems to make some parts of the game easier, not harder, but I'm still dying at around 55% mark, so maybe this isn't a viable tactic

Originally Posted by lifeschool

so there is no substitute for playing the game and gaining confidence in playability; over watching someone complete it. Longplays can help the player learn 'tricks', but as a certain lemon player has already written in asking about the bubble trick with the geese, despite watching my video, it seems watching a longplay is of small value.

Originally Posted by mihcael

I personally would rank watching longplays above using continues to train, as a form of gaining advantage.

This discussion reminds me of an early to mid XX century attitude in some amateur sports, where hiring a coach or organizing training sessions would be considered professionalism So is watching longplays considered an unfair advantage in this competition? I rarely watch them in entirety, but sometimes I look for tactics for a particularly tough boss etc. Is this fine here?

Originally Posted by lifeschool

BlackOceans - Cool. Thank You. Your entry gave you an extra point closer to Harry now with 16.
I hope to get closer to your score soon, but I've been practising the lower stages and keep making ridiculous or unavoidable mistakes.

I'm making lots of silly mistakes too. I guess I got too used to more modern Japanese shoot em ups and their tiny hitboxes. I'm often thinking "this bullet is going to miss me" and the next second I'm suddenly dead

[mihcael]

Originally Posted by mihcael

I personally would rank watching longplays above using continues to train, as a form of gaining advantage.

Originally Posted by BlackOceans

...So is watching longplays considered an unfair advantage in this competition? I rarely watch them in entirety, but sometimes I look for tactics for a particularly tough boss etc. Is this fine here?

There is a slight but important difference there.

It is perfectly acceptable.
I choose not to watch them (mostly). But i dont often compete and im rarely competitive.

[mailman]

300,190

[BlackOceans]

Originally Posted by mihcael

There is a slight but important difference there.

It is perfectly acceptable.
I choose not to watch them (mostly). But i dont often compete and im rarely competitive.

OK, I misread some of the posts or read too much into some comments and thought it's frowned upon here. Thanks for clarification

New score, progressing steadily:

652,080

[lifeschool]

Originally Posted by BlackOceans

Things affected by rank are:
- number of enemies
- number of bullets they shoot
-"hitpoints" of some enemies
- number of rocket turrets activating

I experimented a bit, trying for example to avoid picking up a final "V" power up and using only 4-spread. Counterintuitively this seems to make some parts of the game easier, not harder, but I'm still dying at around 55% mark, so maybe this isn't a viable tactic

THANKS! for starting off the annual discussion on how we can beat games by working out their logic. My old logic partners Lonewolf10 and Capehorn seem to be off the radar lately so I'm glad a couple of us are interested in finding out these secrets. I've been doing my own experiments I can share with experimenters, but I havent finished my tests so will get back to you with the results during the weekend. Keep discovering!

Originally Posted by BlackOceans

is watching longplays considered an unfair advantage in this competition?

Watching longplays is fine!, although I said it was "of small value" to players. You can even watch my playguide video!
[ Show youtube player ]

This was recorded a million years ago, after I hadnt played the game for ages, and I didnt know how to talk on videos and avoid tutting and saying 'erm' a lot. But I do mention Xevious. - which I first played on the C64.

Originally Posted by BlackOceans

I'm making lots of silly mistakes too.

I have an annoying habit of watching a bullet/missile head straight towards the chopper and I waggle left and right rather than avoiding the missile. Dumb!