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View Poll Results: What format would you like C.A.P.S. manuals in?
PDF 37 92.50%
Multiple JPEG's 3 7.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 17 November 2002, 18:33   #21
jmmijo
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@Fiath,

I want to ammend my vote, I want to change it to color ANSI graphics instead like in the old Color 64 BBS app
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Old 17 November 2002, 21:22   #22
ECA
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HOW about....

HTML, format...

You can do just about everything as a PDF.
Its Zippable.

Then you can set the Pic type to Jpg, Gif, bmp, other.

Add Links and a dir, very easily.
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Old 17 November 2002, 22:37   #23
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Very good idea ECA but it'd be a darn lot of work. And I think it might provide a couple of problems making borders which are common in manuals.
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Old 17 November 2002, 22:45   #24
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Evil grin

Quote:
Originally posted by Drake1009
Very good idea ECA but it'd be a darn lot of work. And I think it might provide a couple of problems making borders which are common in manuals.
What, you like PDF because you have used it before. And you aint tried HTML.
Port it over to the PC, and use WORD. SAVE AS: HTML.

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Old 17 November 2002, 23:25   #25
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I know what word does to HTML. It messes it up big time. I've been coding simple HTML myself and I have yet to come across a tag which will allow you to make a table using a bitmap as border.

HTML is better than PDF or JPGs but a lot more trouble making since you've already got the manuals and I'm not aware of any programs which can scan into HTML which is why I said it might be a problem.
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Old 18 November 2002, 05:08   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Drake1009
I know what word does to HTML. It messes it up big time. I've been coding simple HTML myself and I have yet to come across a tag which will allow you to make a table using a bitmap as border.

HTML is better than PDF or JPGs but a lot more trouble making since you've already got the manuals and I'm not aware of any programs which can scan into HTML which is why I said it might be a problem.
Ok, misunderstanding... You Only want to scan them into the comp.
No typeing, nobody has typed it into the comp(yet), and you Dont want to use a "convert to Txt" prog.
Then Just use Jpg... Why even DEAL with PDF.
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Old 18 November 2002, 06:23   #27
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ECA, you obviously have a serious issue with PDF and almost seem to argue anything BUT PDF, rather than look at PDF's advantages.

HTML would mean having all of the text converted to real text, plus having to create the page all over again from scratch. The idea here is to preserve the original document, not to re-create it! Word processor, text editor and HTML variations all would mean creating the original manual all over again and that bypasses the objective completely (if only for the sake of NOT using PDF).

RTF and Word documents are more platform-specific than PDF is.

And as has already been stated, just using JPG format would mean multiple files (which is superseded by the PDF format being in one portable document), plus the fact that most manuals are in black & white, which using JPG would be overkill for with it's full 24-bit palette and compression artifacting. And before it is suggested, a combination of formats (GIF, PNG, JPG, etc.) is also a sloppy, impractical solution. PDF is the industry standard not only for archiving manuals (its usage gets stronger every day), as well as manufacturers using the PDF format for the manuals included in online distribution of their software.

Denying this is just being stubborn. Likewise with your seeking a lower resolution than 300. I suppose there were those that were chagrined at advancing past 640x480x256 graphics resolutions as well (at the time it required more memory, not as compatible, etc.) but thankfully, the pioneers moved forward to more realistic pastures. PDF is without question the only format to fill the needs of this project.
Quote:
I HATE PDF. Only for 1 good reason. Those that USE it, dont clean it up, and use ONLY what is needed. They tend to be VERY slow, and 10-100x TEXT format.
You really can't make a global generalization that those who create PDF's don't clean it up. That's like saying nobody should use HTML or Flash because nobody writes clean pages with them. Mind you, there are many who don't make good PDF's. Part of that is a flaw of Adobe (if you crop portions of a PDF file internally, it keeps the uncropped portion stored for some odd reason...no way around this stupid flaw, either). But there are tools that will convert image text to real text, thus reducing file size, as well as allowing search/copy/paste functions in/from the document.

The slowness of a PDF is not moreso than any other file format...it all depends on the data herein and the speed of the system it is displayed on. Here at work, we can get a PDF that is 3-4 megs big (that when converted to EPS will exceed 200 megs sometimes!) for a page that is 21.5"x13" and it opens faster than any web site or Word document.
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Old 18 November 2002, 08:09   #28
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Then what is the Route you are taking to INPUT the documents.

Are you saying you Cant merge JPG files.. It aint hard..

As you say, it has Flaws(PDF), and unless they Clean it up, it will incorporate then into the file.

EPS, REALLY sucks, unless you clean it up.

If you are scanning the Docs, into PDF then its STILL a graphic, and STILL time consuming. Unless PDF will sort out the txt format, and then WHY not use it with another format.
The only reason for PDF is for copyright, and protection.
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Old 18 November 2002, 08:43   #29
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I know for one thing that when I scan into PDF format it scans twice over. 1 to scan all the text and 1 to scan all the graphics seperately.

If you can give a way to quickly add scanning ability to an alternative format which can make use of compression which is good for the graphics commonly found in manuals (black/white) it'd be great.

Problem is that scanning it as JPGs takes up way too much space because they are so damn large.

The PDF though slow don't need to be cropped when you specify what to scan initially so it doesn't scan too much. Thus the flaw should be circumvented. And PDF is one of the better ways to faithfully recreate a scanned document without losing something. JPG has artifacting which would be negative though. HTML though a good alternative would require all too much work and not work anyway because of border problems. You could set it as background to make a border but it'd take up a lot of work time to get it aligned right. Something I for one wouldn't want to do with every single page of a manual.

You might have a manual of some sort ECA. How about you giving a demonstration of the miracle method you want? Scan a page into JPG and then scan a page into what you want it and convert it to HTML. That'd make for easy comparison between the original manual and the recreation you're able to do. And do remember to time yourself. A PDF scanning takes roughly 1 minute per page.
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:04   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by ECA
Reproduction is Fine. Alot of program will interpolate when printed, as MS Word does. And if its B&W, 96 DPI is fine.
No... It's not fine. I don't want to rely on the printing program making a near copy of the manual - I want the real thing!

Quote:

300 Dpi figures to be about 1 meg per sqin of a Pic.
Not after JPEG'ed.

Quote:

If its for Display only..96 DPI is fine...Print format.. Id suggest 150.
No, it is not for display only. 150 dpi is just not good enough. Have you ever tried to print a full A4 sheet at 150 dpi? It sucks.

Quote:

Embedded pics, ok, or even Pics included with the RTF format with Footnotes to tell which Pic to look at.
[/B][/QUOTE]

How much work do you want me to do?? I don't want to recreate the layout of manuals - it is doing to take long enough just scanning and wacking into PDF.

Besides, I would end up with something that was not how the original was. Not very good for a preservation project!
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:08   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Drake1009
In contrast JPG is a lot of files which is both an advantage in case you only want a certain part of the manual, but as was said. JPGs don't do that well for B/W scans and I believe they might even take longer to scan than PDF even if the PDF need to scan over a page twice.
Unfortuately the PDF's will not be created that way. The reason being is that it is not just me scanning stuff (far from it) and many people do not have access to Adobe Acrobat (like some only have, and thus do scanning on - an Amiga).

So basically, everything will get scanned as JPEG's or PNG's if low colour/detail - these images will then be embedded in a PDF doc.
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:12   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmmijo
@Fiath,

I want to ammend my vote, I want to change it to color ANSI graphics instead like in the old Color 64 BBS app
Perhaps slightly too retro.

Actually this brings up a good point for ECA. Scanning at 300 dpi may seem like a horror now with the filesizes involved - but it won't be long before the space they take up matters much.

The last thing we want is for 5 years down the line to say "oh, I wished we scanned all that stuff at slightly better quality, it looks a bit crap magnified into a readable size on my 3200x2400 resolution screen".

And that is not even taking into account printing stuff out.

At 300 dpi - we should never have this problem.
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:16   #33
fiath
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Quote:
Originally posted by ECA
HOW about....

HTML, format...

You can do just about everything as a PDF.
Its Zippable.

Then you can set the Pic type to Jpg, Gif, bmp, other.

Add Links and a dir, very easily.

The Amiga has what, 3000-4000 distinct games? Some games only have a manual of a few pages, some have 100's. Lets say the average is 5 pages, a very small estimate at best.

So, 3500 games x 5 pages = 17500 pages to scan.

So, 17500 pages with which to:

1) Separate all the gfx
2) OCR the text parts
3) Write the HTML

Do you want to do it?!
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:19   #34
fiath
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Quote:
Originally posted by ECA
What, you like PDF because you have used it before. And you aint tried HTML.
Port it over to the PC, and use WORD. SAVE AS: HTML.

I see the confusion - this assumed that you have a ready OCR'ed PDF version, not a embedded image PDF as we will have.

Other than that, as Drake1009 says - Word outputs shite - I don't want to preserve that!
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:21   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
A lot of good stuff...
I could not have said it better myself. Thanks TG
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:27   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Drake1009
You might have a manual of some sort ECA. How about you giving a demonstration of the miracle method you want? Scan a page into JPG and then scan a page into what you want it and convert it to HTML. That'd make for easy comparison between the original manual and the recreation you're able to do. And do remember to time yourself. A PDF scanning takes roughly 1 minute per page.
Good idea.

Actually this PDF scanning is sounding better and better. Can I use images sources for Acrobat to do it's stuff? So instead of scanning, I give it a JPG or PNG... ? I have never tried... (this is for reasons mentioned before)

Otherwise, again, the images will have to be embedded. PDF being the "carrier" format. The images will still be huge, and you won't be able to search the manual.

Bit of a shitter really... Oh well.

On the plus, side, you will probably be able to rip the images back out of the PDF with some PDF image ripper tool.
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Old 18 November 2002, 14:33   #37
fiath
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Just checked:

http://www.geocities.com/marcoschmid...extractor.html

and you can do the same with PNG:

http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/p...html#Structure
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