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Old 21 June 2013, 12:49   #1
kovacm
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3D in demos - F030 vs Amiga 1200

Hi,

probably not to good choice of words for subject...
I certainly do not want to start any mindless flame war!

I am long time Atari user (since 1986.) and I was wonder what are best Amiga 1200 demos with most complex 3D scenes BUT for STOCK A1200 (14MHz - with FastRAM).

It is very hard to find which AGA demo is for stock A1200 and beside, many people put video on youtube recorded with WinUAE with unknown setting (probably 'fast as possible' ) so I would put list here, with best 3D demos for stock Atari Falcon030 (recorded on real Falcon), and I would like that somebody do the same for Amiga1200.

For stock Atari Falcon there are lot of 3D stuff but some of the best:

Built in Obsolescence by Digital Chaos
[ Show youtube player ]
one of first demos with texture mapped objects (at the end!)

Sonolumineszenz by Avena
[ Show youtube player ]
one of first impressive 3D Falcon demos (but in low res) with great music from Tommy

Hm.... by Escape
[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]
only 3D stuff - motion blur, transparency, textures... (super smooth, hi res)

_ by Escape
[ Show youtube player ]
one more from Escape - even more polygons

Wait by T.O.Y.S
[ Show youtube player ]
not so smooth but lot of shits going on screen

OLDER - mainly flat and guard shaded polygons:

Eko System by EKO
[ Show youtube player ]
Only flat and guard shaded object - lot of polygons on screen with many intersections - and quite pleasant demo!


Thanks in advance!
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Old 21 June 2013, 14:46   #2
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Guard shaded?
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Old 21 June 2013, 16:11   #3
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Hard to remember, especially the requirements

There was a good demo by a group called "Hardwired", they did a demo for plain A1200 without any expansion, but I cannot remember the name,completely gone, and itīs confusing that there is a demo called "Hardwired" by a different group.

With memory expansion I think Nexus 7 would be the best demo for 020/AGA, but I wouldnīt be surprised if I was mistaking with the requirements and itīs maybe for 68030.

And Mellow Chips Divine comes into mind.
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Old 21 June 2013, 18:43   #4
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The only demo by Hardwired I can find is this one called Frontier http://bitworld.bitfellas.org/demo.php?id=32876
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Old 21 June 2013, 20:02   #5
pandy71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
Hi,

probably not to good choice of words for subject...
I certainly do not want to start any mindless flame war!

I am long time Atari user (since 1986.) and I was wonder what are best Amiga 1200 demos with most complex 3D scenes BUT for STOCK A1200 (14MHz - with FastRAM).

It is very hard to find which AGA demo is for stock A1200 and beside, many people put video on youtube recorded with WinUAE with unknown setting (probably 'fast as possible' ) so I would put list here, with best 3D demos for stock Atari Falcon030 (recorded on real Falcon), and I would like that somebody do the same for Amiga1200.

For stock Atari Falcon there are lot of 3D stuff but some of the best:
As we all know - Falcon is superior to plain Amiga 1200 (even Amiga with 68040 on board) due of 56k on board (that is frequently used to do 3D fast calculations)

If you really want compare 3D graphics, compare or plain Amiga 500/600 with ST or compare A1200 however with decent accelerator card and graphic card (VIDEL architecture is different than AGA).

With your current criterias there no even sens to start compare incomparable machines (Plain A1200 somewhere around 2MIPS and Falcon somewhere 5MIPS + 16MIPS from DSP56001).
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Old 21 June 2013, 20:15   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak View Post
With memory expansion I think Nexus 7 would be the best demo for 020/AGA, but I wouldnīt be surprised if I was mistaking with the requirements and itīs maybe for 68030.
I'm pretty sure Nexus 7 runs fine on a stock A1200, but it doesn't have much of the 3D stuff requested by the OP...

I guess "guard shaded" should've been "gouraud shaded" ;-)
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Old 21 June 2013, 20:21   #7
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Vanilla A1200 vs 030 Falcon is a meaningless comparison.
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Old 21 June 2013, 20:22   #8
pandy71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooverphonique View Post
I guess "guard shaded" should've been "gouraud shaded" ;-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
I certainly do not want to start any mindless flame war!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouraud_shading

some Falcon (and Amiga) demos claims even Phong shading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_shading
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Old 21 June 2013, 21:06   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy71 View Post
some Falcon (and Amiga) demos claims even Phong shading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_shading
The so-called "phong" shading in demos is a simple env-mapping fake. Real phong shading would be much too slow.
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Old 21 June 2013, 22:03   #10
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Check out AGA demos which have been released around 1994/95. A few examples which come to my mind immediately are:

- Real / Complex
- Origin / Complex
- Love / Virtual Dreams & FLT
- Full Moon / Virtual Dreams & FLT
- Psychedelic / Virtual Dreams & FLT
- Motion (Origin 2) / Bomb!

- all stuff from Oxygene (also a famous Atari group)
- Scoopex
- Haujobb
- etc.
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Old 21 June 2013, 22:09   #11
kovacm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy71 View Post
As we all know - Falcon is superior to plain Amiga 1200 (even Amiga with 68040 on board) due of 56k on board (that is frequently used to do 3D fast calculations)

If you really want compare 3D graphics, compare or plain Amiga 500/600 with ST or compare A1200 however with decent accelerator card and graphic card (VIDEL architecture is different than AGA).

With your current criterias there no even sens to start compare incomparable machines (Plain A1200 somewhere around 2MIPS and Falcon somewhere 5MIPS + 16MIPS from DSP56001).
hm... I am not so sure.

Why you say that "Vanilla A1200 vs 030 Falcon is a meaningless comparison." (btw NOT vanilla Amiga but A1200 with FastRAM!).

my thoughts, in no-special order:
1. yes, 030 has 512 bytes data/instruction cache
2. Falcon DSP is certainly welcome but it is limited by slow, 8bit host-port transfer so you can not take "fact" 16MIPS as granted.
3. Falcon with 16bit bus, 16MHz, and 4 cycles RAM access have 8MB/s BUT VIDEL also access to same RAM. In truecolor 320x200 mode it will take up to 13% of RAM time: so you will have around 7MB/s (more info: http://rodolphe.czuba.free.fr/CT2/english/technic.htm)
4. Not sure about A1200 chip RAM and Fast RAM speed... ?? can anyone give a info?
5. Falcon have VIDEL and truecolor chunk mode; but I read somewhere that there is some very fast C2P routs for Amiga (BUT I am not sure if they can be implemented on stock (with FastRAM) A1200)

I would say that both have their own weakness and strengths and because of that I would like to see what coders manage to pull from them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooverphonique View Post
I'm pretty sure Nexus 7 runs fine on a stock A1200, but it doesn't have much of the 3D stuff requested by the OP...

I guess "guard shaded" should've been "gouraud shaded" ;-)
yes, my bad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak View Post
With memory expansion I think Nexus 7 would be the best demo for 020/AGA, but I wouldnīt be surprised if I was mistaking with the requirements and itīs maybe for 68030.
if Nexus 7 [ Show youtube player ] is from stock A1200 than it is most IMPRESSIVE !!
very fast 3D!!!

Quote:
compare or plain Amiga 500/600 with ST
we can open new topic but I think that ST is faster with 10% faster CPU and interleave video memory (and movem.l)...


EDIT:
thanx Bobic! I will take a look!
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Old 21 June 2013, 22:57   #12
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WoW!

Real / Complex
[ Show youtube player ]
very impressive textured mapped scene at end! Stock A1200 with FastRAM.

> ...somehow similar to "Moai" by Mystic Bytes and Satantronic:
> [ Show youtube player ]

Vision - Oxygene (1995)
[ Show youtube player ]
how they made scene at 3:40 ???

Control - Oxygene (1995)
[ Show youtube player ]
very impressive 3D! super smooth - is this recorded from original A1200 ?

problem with Scoopex and Haujobb demos on youtube is that there is no info about hardware requirements...


Thanx again on suggestions!
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Old 22 June 2013, 00:16   #13
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Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
WoW!
Vision - Oxygene (1995)
[ Show youtube player ]
how they made scene at 3:40 ???
the scene at 3:40 looks like animation/precalc to me - the camera path is looping if you look closely..
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Old 22 June 2013, 02:25   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
hm... I am not so sure.

Why you say that "Vanilla A1200 vs 030 Falcon is a meaningless comparison." (btw NOT vanilla Amiga but A1200 with FastRAM!).

my thoughts, in no-special order:
1. yes, 030 has 512 bytes data/instruction cache
2. Falcon DSP is certainly welcome but it is limited by slow, 8bit host-port transfer so you can not take "fact" 16MIPS as granted.
3. Falcon with 16bit bus, 16MHz, and 4 cycles RAM access have 8MB/s BUT VIDEL also access to same RAM. In truecolor 320x200 mode it will take up to 13% of RAM time: so you will have around 7MB/s (more info: http://rodolphe.czuba.free.fr/CT2/english/technic.htm)
4. Not sure about A1200 chip RAM and Fast RAM speed... ?? can anyone give a info?
5. Falcon have VIDEL and truecolor chunk mode; but I read somewhere that there is some very fast C2P routs for Amiga (BUT I am not sure if they can be implemented on stock (with FastRAM) A1200)
Plain A1200 is without FastRAM, memory speed limitations are similar or even worse than on Falcon, DSP have different architecture thus even with 8 bit port can provide 16MIPS in terms dot product, vector transformations etc etc - data exchange probably is slower thus efficient 56000 use - push heavy calculations with relatively low data exchange rate will anyway add more to system than FastRAM with 68030/50MHz to A1200 thus they can't be compared unless you think about comparison not flame.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
we can open new topic but I think that ST is faster with 10% faster CPU and interleave video memory (and movem.l)...
What new topic? tricks how to open border? 16 color LUT? 320x200? i mean sorry but just calculate how much time is wasted on ST to simulate Copper.
How many thing you need to emulate from Amiga on ST - and this is maximum for ST - be reasonable - i like ST too but...





This what i can do on plain A500 - can you do the same on plain ST (with 10% faster MC68K)?

Last edited by pandy71; 22 June 2013 at 13:33.
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Old 22 June 2013, 06:28   #15
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the scene at 3:40 looks like animation/precalc to me - the camera path is looping if you look closely..
I think almost all demos are pre-calculated.
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Old 22 June 2013, 13:34   #16
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Originally Posted by DH View Post
The only demo by Hardwired I can find is this one called Frontier http://bitworld.bitfellas.org/demo.php?id=32876
Thatīs the demo I was looking for, thanks. MAybe not enough 3D, but runs on unexpanded A1200 and itīs good to look at.
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Old 22 June 2013, 16:31   #17
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Originally Posted by NovaCoder View Post
I think almost all demos are pre-calculated.
often there is some degree of precalc, but the vast majority of effects do not use animation..
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Old 22 June 2013, 18:49   #18
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A1200 with FastRAM

Crazy Sexy Cool / ESSENCE
Makaveli / ESSENCE

Glow / TBL
Tint / TBL
Goa / TBL

Closer / CNCD

Phi / ARTWORK
The Gate / ARTWORK
Megademo IV / ARTWORK

Grid 2 / NATURE
Zeon / NATURE

My Kingdom / SCX & HJB

Fear Factory / ARSENIC

Last edited by Frog; 22 June 2013 at 19:03.
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Old 23 June 2013, 00:25   #19
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All the TBL demos you listed are intended to run on 030 (check their .nfo files).
They might run on 020 but will be incredibly slow...
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Old 23 June 2013, 02:25   #20
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I think almost all demos are pre-calculated.
That is, quite frankly, far away from truth, most demos are 100% realtime.
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