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Old 02 June 2013, 08:55   #41
s2325
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YM sound emulated on Amiga [ Show youtube player ]
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Old 02 June 2013, 14:02   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Ermh, no. Music is important for games, true. But the main reason why the C64 wins in the game category so easily is simple. It was designed as a video game console, and later Tramiel ordered to extend it to a full computer. Hardware scrolling, Hires sprites AND the good sound chip. All that things, that are important for creating good arcade games, lacked the CPC.
This is a programmer's, not a player's viewpoint. Although 50 fps is perfect, 25 fps remains a decent speed for most games, and less than that can be ok for certain games, depending on the concept. As you say, better scrolling on the C64 is a fact, due to the console/hardware design. But there was a range of good games on the CPC which also made good use of proprietary hardware scrolling capabilities through CRTC double-buffering. Plus a lot of good games didn't require any scrolling at all, and not only adventure/rpg - or they just needed slow scrolling for walking characters i.e. for instance, Commando.

In addition a better palette was initially good for all games, not only the ones with scrolling, and also it could be improved on the CPC through hack/tweaks, like on the C64. So both platforms had their strengths & weaknesses you could work around on the graphics and animations' side, and there was no gap serious enough to make a big difference here. At last don't forget that many arcade ports were simply better on the CPC as compared to the C64.

So, the real thing here is attactiveness. In a way that some teens/young adult players would convert to demomakers thanks to '¤wow¤ the music is so good it gives me inspiration'. That's how the demoscene started.

ps: I'm not spanning out of nowhere. I cracked dozens of games and programmed various stuff on the CPC (incl. full-screen 1 px scrolltext in Basic, and auto-generated code in Basic, both using only few Assembler ROM built-in undocumented stuff). Then, I've been an active and sometimes leading part of more than 15 elite groups on the Amiga for years. A lot of the 'scene stars' back in the time were my friends or just contacts and I've heard so many testimonials about what motivated them to do cracks or demos.

Definitely, music was the differentiating factor. Music vibrates with our soul. Music drove crowds of hysteric people to concerts, while neither paintings nor even movies did.

Plus, a good game with bad music is still a good game, while good code/graphics in a demo with bad music doesn't make a good demo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
I agree. If the French gaming freaks would have had the choice....
Yes, probably they would have become French demo-makers sooner than late.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
True, but the C64 also sufferd from some ports that looked like running a Spectrum emulator on the C64.
First this has generally nothing to do with the computers' programming, gfx and music features. Also both CPC 464 and C64 received ports from the Atari ST and they were great.

So it's mainly due to England, where Spectrum had the largest market share, and where most large video games vendors originated from (except for France, the only competing country on this side). Plus Sinclair and Amstrad were English companies. Commodore and Atari were American.

With some simplification you had the following picture: Spectrum leading in the UK. Amstrad CPC leading in France, Italy and Spain. C64 leading in the Northern part of Europe, including Germany.

There were too few large video game producers in Germany and Northern Europe at that time. Thus you had a lot of English VG companies developing for Spectrum first then porting to other platforms. Arcade ports were often done from the source to the three platforms, with Spectrum and Amstrad (largest customer base was just across the Channel) benefitting first from direct ports, and sometimes C64 having just the port of a port. Most French companies on their side were bound to the Amstrad CPC, often ignoring the other platforms and countries.

Funnily, taking the same simplified picture of Europe based on platforms' market shares, you can also retrace back the history of the demo scene.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Another good point, also some nice graphic/text adventures. But were they all that good? I know that especially French magazines overhyped games tremendously.
Yes they were. I played them all. Take Zombi for instance, the first game released by Ubi Soft. It went out on Amstrad CPC in 1986 then was ported to other platforms (Amiga, C64, Spectrum) only in 1990. For a 1990 game it was average but for a 1986 game it was just great! Fer et Flamme was an excellent RPG for a personal computer. L'Île (also Ubi Soft) was a clever graphic/text adventure game. Cobra Soft released a lot of detective adventure video games which were for the most part quite well made. See also Erebus by Titus (their first game), Alphakhor by Loriciel, Les Passagers du Vent by Infogrames. Another very good graphic/text adventure was "Les Passagers du Temps" by Ere Informatique. Etc.

Would you like to see with your eyes? Check these links, using or not using Google Translation:
http://cpcrulez.fr/GamesTest/index.php
http://cpc-aventure.chez-alice.fr/jeuxcpc/jeuxcpc.htm

Last edited by n00w; 02 June 2013 at 14:09. Reason: Bad English + small precisions
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Old 02 June 2013, 14:24   #43
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Quote:
This is a programmer's, not a player's viewpoint. Although 50 fps is perfect, 25 fps remains a decent speed for most games...
I don't think so, if we are talking about horizontal/vertical scrolling games. I (and many here too as i noticed) hate Amiga 25 (or less) FPS games. Even if some are really good like most Bitmap brothers games, it's not 100% joy to play them. Exact 25 FPS gives you a blurred scrolling, less or unstable FPS a jerky scrolling. Not acceptable for arcade/action games. A lot of CPC games also uses a very tiny viewable screen and no music at all to save performance.
Quote:

...and less than that can be ok for certain games, depending on the concept
Should be good enough for single screen games. But they even sucked in porting e.g. Bubble Bobble. Also the nice looking fan remake shows an awful sprite flicker.



Quote:
Yes they were. I played them all. Take Zombi for instance, the first game released by Ubi Soft. It went out on Amstrad CPC in 1986 then was ported to other platforms (Amiga, C64, Spectrum) only in 1990. For a 1990 game it was average but for a 1986 game it was just great! Fer et Flamme was an excellent RPG for a personal computer. L'Île (also Ubi Soft) was a clever graphic/text adventure game. Cobra Soft released a lot of detective adventure video games which were for the most part quite well made. See also Erebus by Titus (their first game), Alphakhor by Loriciel, Les Passagers du Vent by Infogrames. Another very good graphic/text adventure was "Les Passagers du Temps" by Ere Informatique. Etc.
Zombi was quite OK but surely no classic like the complete Bard's Tale series or Wasteland on the C64. Les Passagers du Vent? More like a digital comic, very boring. Will have a look at Fer et Flamme.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 02 June 2013 at 14:52.
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Old 02 June 2013, 15:50   #44
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I don't think so, if we are talking about horizontal/vertical scrolling games. I (and many here too as i noticed) hate Amiga 25 (or less) FPS games. Even if some are really good like most Bitmap brothers games, it's not 100% joy to play them.
That's true for Amiga and any most recent platforms. Back in the time you could only compare Spectrum/C64/CPC versions between them or to older platforms, and it was better playing 25 fps games than older versions which were worse, sometimes even with 8 px scrolls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Should be good enough for single screen games. But they even sucked in porting e.g. Bubble Bobble. Also the nice looking fan remake shows an awful sprite flicker.
Haven't seen it on Amstrad. I already had an Amiga when it came out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Zombi was quite OK but surely no classic like the complete Bard's Tale series or Wasteland on the C64. Les Passagers du Vent? More like a digital comic, very boring. Will have a look at Fer et Flamme.
Don't forget that Zombi was out in 1986 on Amstrad CPC so it's truly a classic. Do you really think that if Bard's Tale would have been released four years later (in 1989 instead of 1985) with the same features it would have been a classic? Not sure... Also Wasteland was initially made for Apple II, and was not a C64 game franchise, but I agree that it didn't exist on Amstrad.

As action/adventure game - not graphic/text, Get Dexter (Ere Informatique's Crafton & Xunk, in French) was also a classic released in 1986 for the CPC. The first was ported to ST in 1987 and the second released in 1988 was never ported to any other platforms.

Les Passagers du Vent? I agree with you, but it had good graphics.

Last edited by n00w; 02 June 2013 at 15:56. Reason: Get Dexter
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Old 02 June 2013, 16:04   #45
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It's pointless to discuss it, i know. Sure, the CPC had some good games too and sometimes even the better arcade ports like Bomb Jack.

But with a look of the game library after 30 years the CPC lacks a lot of iconic games that defined the C64, or had a least the inferior versions. No Maniac Mansion or Zak McKracken, Last Ninja, crappy Turrican II version etc.

Quote:
Les Passagers du Vent? I agree with you, but it had good graphics.
Well, i'm no graphics fanatic. Gameplay, level design and controls comes first in my book.
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Old 02 June 2013, 16:09   #46
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In both Turrican parts hero have new armour which I don't like. Nice music but games are choppy and slow.
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Old 02 June 2013, 16:32   #47
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It's pointless to discuss it, i know. .
Yep. It is. The more so as I've said that the C64 was the best of all three platforms.

The best because it had far advanced music and sound as compared to the other platforms, which made demos possible, which made the Scene possible. The Scene without which this website, as well as our good memories of the past, wouldn't exist at all.

Regarding games, well, there's no real winner in my opinion. Both C64 and CPC platforms were good and had plenty of great stuff at the time, so why bother resurrect the old wars?
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Old 02 June 2013, 16:41   #48
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The C64 demo scene is great and alive. But i wouldn't praise the music over the fine graphic/scrolling effects. Both are equal important for demos. Ask some coder. Also the C64 games scene is still alive with great releases in the last 3-4 years. When i read in CPC forums the very small scene seems disunited with silly flame wars, hacked/deleted websites etc.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 02 June 2013 at 16:49.
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Old 02 June 2013, 22:01   #49
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Regarding games, well, there's no real winner in my opinion. Both C64 and CPC platforms were good and had plenty of great stuff at the time, so why bother resurrect the old wars?
There were never any actual C64 vs CPC wars... if there were any then the winner there would be obvious. Had a few friends that exchanged their overpriced CPC's for C64 in a few months after purchase. Games were either ZX ports or crap (or both).
There were huge C64 vs ZX wars (ZX being inferior in all aspects BUT in the price ) and ST vs Amiga wars.
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Old 02 June 2013, 23:37   #50
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Old 02 June 2013, 23:52   #51
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Sega Master System or MSX2 for me please

On a more serious note: I think there are games that are better suited for CPC, but in general most games had an advantage on the C64. Like the Apple IIgs had a few games that weren't on Amiga or that were poorly ported that were 'superior'. In the end it's good to know all systems and it's plus and minus points (except for the ST maybe... )
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Old 03 June 2013, 07:29   #52
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I had a C64, and 2 of my best friends had an Amstrad cpc, so i played a lot on the CPC too, and even programed on it also.

I definitively think the C64 was/is a better machine. I always saw the Amstrad like a PC, and the C64 like an Amiga. The cpc had a good processor and better graphic resolution/colors, but the c64 the better sound and MUCH better animation possibilities (hardware sprites and 1kb screen scrolling).

It is impossible to do a game in 50ips on an Amstrad on a full screen scrolling, while it is very easy to do on the C64. Even 25 ips on the Amstrad was hard to do, the screen was offten reduced to a smaller window. the problem is that you had to move 16Kb on the Amstrad if moving the whole screen, while you only had to move 1kb on the C64, or 2kb if moving the extra color screen too.
Then there are the hardware sprites on the C64, wich made it impossible to beat by the cpc who had to draw them with his processor, while the C64 just had to change a single byte or 2 to move them.

There is something else that probably played a big role in C64 users preffering their computer to the Amstrad CPC. The games looked much better on a Real Cathodic TV than on the PC kind of Monitor that the waste majority of Amstrad users used.
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Old 03 June 2013, 07:39   #53
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"the waste majority of Amstrad users"
That's an appropriate typo ;-)
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Old 03 June 2013, 13:57   #54
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I have the cpc 464 but no monitor,years ago I did have the rgb moitor and the tv unit with so I could play my Sega Mega Drive and Mega CD with it,I loved playing Arkoniod with the cpc,yep it has some good games,just wondered would ant 5v PSU work with it because I know I can use the VGA card http://www.amazon.co.uk/converter-ou.../dp/B006OW88V6 I have that I am using with my Amiga with it..?

If you like the CPC then you will like the BBC B Micro because they have simuler basic and rom.
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Old 05 June 2013, 20:41   #55
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Old 05 June 2013, 21:20   #56
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Mmmh...

Funny wars but still pointless. There's no theoretical, purely subjective or worse, sophistic argument, that can replace facts. Let's enjoy some real stuff please!

Some demos on Amstrad:
Vanity "From Scratch": [ Show youtube player ]
Vanity "Still Rising": [ Show youtube player ]
Phat 2: [ Show youtube player ]
Facehugger Ultimate Megademo: [ Show youtube player ]
Condense "Phreaks": [ Show youtube player ]
Condense "Pheelone": [ Show youtube player ]
Wolfenstrad: [ Show youtube player ]

Not so bad after all. Add these to the Batman demo provided by TC. Much better than I thought it would be. A good way to see the capabilities, but also, sometimes, the limits.

Now some games compared between platforms:

Renegade on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Renegade on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
Mmmmh colors, but small screen...

Arkanoid on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Arkanoid on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
Hey what happened there?

Ghost'n'Goblins on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Ghost'n'Goblins on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
Better colors, but horizontal scroll really sucks on CPC.

Double Dragon on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Double Dragon on CPC (good version released in France):
[ Show youtube player ]
Double Dragon on CPC (bad version released in UK, a ZX market):
[ Show youtube player ]
C64 is better overall. Both CPC versions are a good case study regarding ports by software companies for dedicated markets.

Mission Genocide on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
Proof that vertical scroll can be decent here.

On the other hand, I think I've never seen any good horizontal scroll at 50 fps on CPC. Except maybe for this one (horizontal scene in 3D Stunt Rider):
[ Show youtube player ]

Gryzor on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Gryzor on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
C64 version is ugly but fast. CPC can finally manage sprites but not horizontal scroll (screen by screen instead). Still the game is fun to play on both platforms.

Chase HQ on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Chase HQ on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
Terrible ZX port on C64, very good on CPC. No problem with Z-scroll.

Outrun on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Outrun on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
The exact opposite. CPC version is a joke, C64 one rocks.

Several versions of Space Harrier on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
Space Harrier on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
Both good but very different. When wired 3D can make up for the sprites' issue...

After Burner on C64:
[ Show youtube player ]
After Burner on CPC:
[ Show youtube player ]
Highs and lows on both versions. Which one do you prefer?

A good surprise for Amstrad: Robocop comparison between ZX, CPC and C64:
[ Show youtube player ]

Some good old stuff on CPC:
Sorcery:
[ Show youtube player ]
Cauldron:
[ Show youtube player ]
Get Dexter:
[ Show youtube player ]
Gunfright (great open isometric 3D game with diagonal scroll, nice but slower CPC version vs faster 2-colors Speccy version):
CPC: [ Show youtube player ]
ZX: [ Show youtube player ]
Bruce Lee:
[ Show youtube player ]
Barbarian (slow but beautiful):
[ Show youtube player ]
As slow and less beautiful on C64: [ Show youtube player ]

Ok everybody know what are the technical capabilities on paper, but one should also have a look at real stuff.

cya!
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Old 05 June 2013, 21:56   #57
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Double dragon, the release you called 'good one' is a 128kb release only. The other was developed because there was no 64Kb release planned at first.

Same happened with the Sequel. 128kb only because the 'good version' can't be cut for a 64kb machines. Nothing related to the market, only RAM limitation (source : interview of Rich Aplin).

About what you say, Wec le mans C64 music is good, very good. But the CPC music is excellent too (as usual with Jon Dunn).

Same about stormlord (Raff Cecco was a 'CPC' and both CPC versions are better than the C64, graphic, sound, playability wise.
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Old 05 June 2013, 22:00   #58
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You don't really want to start posting games and demos that were better on the Amstrad, do you? If I'd start posting demos and games proving the C64 was the superior machine, it would probably take down the server again, as that had to be thousands of entries. Ninety percent of all great C64 games were never released on the Amstrad (or Schneider, that was its name in germany). That made the decision what machine to buy quite easy for me back then.
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Old 05 June 2013, 22:08   #59
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Loving the fact I've created a bit of debate. Still kinda surprised by the amount of "passion" out there either for or against. I love the c64 and the spectrum but the Amstrad at least on some games was a worthy adversary. (this took me a bit by surprise)
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Old 05 June 2013, 22:22   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt. Hindsight View Post
You don't really want to start posting games and demos that were better on the Amstrad, do you? If I'd start posting demos and games proving the C64 was the superior machine, it would probably take down the server again, as that had to be thousands of entries.
Please do. I am sure RCK will be happy to see the new server hardware being stress-tested
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