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Old 09 March 2016, 18:05   #361
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Actually Nemesis isn't a good music example. Compare Delta or Lightfore with the normal Gradius MSX PSG music, which is awful. And Gradius is a slideshow on MSX, horrible scrolling due to low frame rates.
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Old 09 March 2016, 18:06   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatterhand View Post
You notice more than half of the games I showed above aren't from Konami, right?

Also not all games from Konami used the SCC. Anyway, Europeans were better than Japanese in taking most of a sound hardware... at least on this they were better

Konami, Compile, Namco, Taito, Irem, Sega.. and then some other Japanese developers I'd guess most European dudes don't know very well, like Technosoft, Hertz, Telenet, Wolfteam, Bitē

I mean, it really hilarious that the C64 guys think stuff like Armalyte are top notch shooters.

Also, you honestly think this:

[ Show youtube player ]

sounds better than this:

[ Show youtube player ]

?
OMG, not another 3fps/per sec scrolling hero!
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Old 09 March 2016, 18:10   #363
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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
You need a special cart on c64 to achieve what a CPC can do in term of loading speed. Operation Wolf CPC disk version loads very fast without anything needed.
You do not actually need a cart to do so. The Final Cartridge 3 is pure software. There is no special hardware, the thing is just a ROM chip. You could do exactly the same loading a fast loader from disk and using that, without any carts.

Case in point, the Action Replay lets you save a backup to disk which you can load -without the cart present- at similar speeds. Same goes for the FCIII, which can also create a fast-disk loading backup which can then be loaded quite quickly - without the FCIII present.

Quote:
Nota : A level in OpWolf needs 3 seconds to load on CPC.

Also don't forget that the CPC graphics are bigger to load than the c64 ones.
3 seconds is impressive. True.

But... If you have a game filling the 64KB available on either machine (i.e. the vast majority of them) the total load size won't change so that's clearly not true.


Quote:
That's almost twice the time needed to load the CPC version.
And still about 2-4 minutes faster than you earlier claims about C64 disk loading speeds. Which was my point: the C64 loads slower, yes. But no where near as much slower as you claim.

Quote:
The c64 used slow 5 1/4" floppy disk drives. The CPC 3" inches drives, is basically running at the same speed than a 3.5" floppy drive of an ST or an Amiga.
I think you'd need to prove that. Your loading times mentioned (14 seconds for <= 64KB) would translate into several minutes to load a game on the Amiga and it well, generally actually happens quicker.

Quote:
Yes and no. Most CPC games on tape on average do not exceed 13 minutes of data to load.

Any game with no multiload is basically 8-10 minutes long only.
C64 single load standard turbo tapes take ~2 to 5 minutes. Top end.
I know this because I've dumped a ton of C64 games to the DC2N.

Most multi loads actually don't have tapes bigger than 10 minutes per side (side a: loader + title screen / level 1, side b: rest of levels).

Turrican I&II C64 came on a 30 minute tape (15 per side) and the tape wasn't fully filled up.

Quote:
When you go higher, it's multiloader games with fast loading scheme.

However, games taking 20 minutes and more on c64 are more often encountered (Commando for instance, is an horror to load on c64!)
Actually, those are quite rare indeed. Even The Last Ninja 2 (which is quite big), or say Turrican 2 don't take anywhere near that long to load.

Fun fact, a 1 hour tape on the C64 translates into about 1000KB of data using a good (i.e. standard turbo tape) turbo loader (standard loader = 100KB per 30 minutes, turbo tapes are about 10x the speed)

Quote:
I know no game needing 20 minutes to load from start to the main menu of the game.
I got that from a YouTube comparison video by The Shadows Nose. I forget which game it was, but it took him over 20 minutes to load the Amstrad version from tape.

Quote:
In fact, you can have a game with only 8 minutes of band to play, but if the loading scheme is slow, it can take 20 minutes to load. And out of the specific Cartridge game for the C64, the Disk and Tape I/O are very slow on this computer.
An 8 minute tape takes 8 minutes to load on the C64, the C64 does not support variable speed tape loading - the tape always runs at the same rate.

The only variable is decrunching, which would be about 2x slower as the same on the Amstrad due to the Amstrad CPU being about 2x the speed.
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Old 09 March 2016, 18:11   #364
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Yep, Gradius seems to run in 5-6fps. Well Space Manbow is a good one. Great graphics and playability but not a smooth game at all.
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Old 09 March 2016, 18:15   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hansel75 View Post
Glad to see the CPC was good for something

Meanwhile my 1984 Breadbin C64 keeps soldiering on with no changes!
You mean you never changed the capacitors on your breadbin ?

That's very bad, because it has an influence on the picture display quality.

The day i've changed all those of mine, it was night and day.

You have the "elephant foot" as PSU right (given with breadbin models?)

You'll be sorry the day the AC voltage will go down frying your motherboard components !

My c64 is a breadbin model made in 1983, modified by procep (i have not removed the card they added under the keyboard.

I have enclosed 2 pictures, 1 of the box of my breadbin, and 1 of the C64 itself
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Old 09 March 2016, 18:20   #366
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btw: The C64C or C64G has a better picture quality anyway. Old bread bins are only for collectors. If you need one for daily use nothing beats the newer models. Well, there is the problem playing digisounds with low volume on the SID 8580, but there is a fix too.
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Old 09 March 2016, 19:26   #367
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Quote:
You do not actually need a cart to do so. The Final Cartridge 3 is pure software. There is no special hardware, the thing is just a ROM chip. You could do exactly the same loading a fast loader from disk and using that, without any carts.
Roondar, it's not pure software if you need some hardware to store the software.

Quote:
Case in point, the Action Replay lets you save a backup to disk which you can load -without the cart present- at similar speeds. Same goes for the FCIII, which can also create a fast-disk loading backup which can then be loaded quite quickly - without the FCIII present.
Yes, we have the same, it's called Multiface II and it allows to make saves on disk of a particular moment of a game. It was used to crack the games by hackers back in the day.


Quote:
3 seconds is impressive. True.
Yes 3 seconds, but it's not for all games. It depends of the loader used.

Quote:
But... If you have a game filling the 64KB available on either machine (i.e. the vast majority of them) the total load size won't change so that's clearly not true.
The mode 0 graphics of the CPC are bigger and take more space.

You can put more graphics data in a c64 64kb ram for a 60kb main code than on a CPC. The 64kb ram space is very quickly filled.

A tape multiloading game on CPC using mode 0 in size is on average 250kb.

Turrican II (even considering all the blocks are crunched) in its tape version is 370kb. Turrican II on C64 is not that big.

The space gained in graphic space in ram can be used on c64 to store music and sound fx. On CPC the whole 64kb ram space is used (i remember the coder saying that he fought for bytes !).

Robocop is 200kb,
Midnight Resistance 233kb,
Batman the Movie 210kb,
Ghostbusters 2 196kb,
Operation thunderbolt 304kb,
Operation Wolf 287kb,
Turrican 230kb
Rainbow Islands 230kb

Sizes are big considering some of them even have no music ingame.

I have dumped too my c64 games (without DC2N, my actual dumping workshop is good enough to have all the blocks right first time).

None of the game are that big on c64.

Golden Axe data size for example is only 130kb, when the CPC version even with compression or encryption is 180kb (50kb more !).

And the CPC loads this game faster than my c64 can do

Concerning the total load size i was coming at it : Of course, on a CPC, since you have 128kb on the disk version machine, most games load longer because they're loading and filling the whole memory.

This is a thing a c64 game won't have, since it has only 64kb of ram.

For instance, Rambo III CPC take 44 seconds to fill the 128kb of RAM of my 6128 (the title screen + the main code + all the levels.)

Quote:
And still about 2-4 minutes faster than you earlier claims about C64 disk loading speeds. Which was my point: the C64 loads slower, yes. But no where near as much slower as you claim.
You told me the loading happened in 9 seconds in Opwolf with cart.
I answered the loading on CPC is done in 14 seconds.

This was for the disk versions of both computers. In term of tape version, it's just evident the CPC loads faster the game on a 64kb configuration.

It uses a speedlock 3, which use a 2000 bauds scheme. From what i know, the C64 tape original version is not loading at 2000 bauds, far from that.

The actual speed the CPC handle without any cart or additional hardware on tapes is like this :

1000, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000 bauds this up to 7000 bauds on the very latest scheme i tested.

Rick Dangerous for example, once compacted and encoded for tape loads in 45 seconds. The compacted size of the main code is 40kb.

40kb in 45 seconds This when the bleepload original loads in 8-10 minutes.

Quote:
I think you'd need to prove that. Your loading times mentioned (14 seconds for <= 64KB) would translate into several minutes to load a game on the Amiga and it well, generally actually happens quicker.
Proving ? But the CPC is known to have a fast disk drive, and the ability to load lightning fast the games on tapes. And you're comparing apples and oranges, the amiga has to load way way more data ! And it mainly do track read !

Quote:
C64 single load standard turbo tapes take ~2 to 5 minutes. Top end.
I have some games using standard c64 schemes, like commando, which take ages to load, i can go out buying some chocolate, piss, wank a bit, and it's still has not loaded

None of my c64 tape games load in 2 to 5 minutes.

They all need between 4 and 9 minutes to load from start to the main menu of the game.

Quote:
I know this because I've dumped a ton of C64 games to the DC2N.
I have a workshop dedicated to dumping, both for CPC and C64.

i have done more than 1000 tapes for CPC, and done also quite a number on C64, and the c64 games takes longer to load, but take less time to record than their CPC counterparts. That's quite funny

Quote:
Most multi loads actually don't have tapes bigger than 10 minutes per side (side a: loader + title screen / level 1, side b: rest of levels).
Altered beast : 12mn30 on side B
Batman the movie : 11 minutes on side A alone.....
Deliverance Stormlord II : 19 minutes (CPC version 3 parts is 11 minutes only !!!)
Golden Axe : 20 min (Side A 7 minutes + 13 minutes on side B)
Shadow Dancer : 16 minutes !!!
Terminator 2 : 19 minutes
Turrican I : 9 minutes on side A alone.... since the game is 2 sides, it's more than 15 minutes of data.

Quote:
Turrican I&II C64 came on a 30 minute tape (15 per side) and the tape wasn't fully filled up.
I dumped this game, check

Quote:
Actually, those are quite rare indeed. Even The Last Ninja 2 (which is quite big), or say Turrican 2 don't take anywhere near that long to load.
Not this rare, check the list above, and i have not listed them all !

Quote:
Fun fact, a 1 hour tape on the C64 translates into about 1000KB of data using a good (i.e. standard turbo tape) turbo loader (standard loader = 100KB per 30 minutes, turbo tapes are about 10x the speed)
I have some games using turbo loaders on C64, but those are still slower than their equivalent on CPC

Ninja warrior is an horror to load, it takes an eternity !!

Quote:
I got that from a YouTube comparison video by The Shadows Nose. I forget which game it was, but it took him over 20 minutes to load the Amstrad version from tape.
You're misleading with the game X-out, (a game i own on c64), which is a punition to load on C64, and indeed, the game data on the band is 20 minutes long (hopefully, the game is great and well polished!).

The CPC version of X-out use the Alkatraz protection scheme, ensuring the loading is very fast (this scheme alone is faster to load than ANY c64 scheme available !)

Quote:
An 8 minute tape takes 8 minutes to load on the C64, the C64 does not support variable speed tape loading - the tape always runs at the same rate.
Ahhhh !!!! So here is the explanation, the CPC support VARIABLE speeds !!!

When the CPC detects a custom scheme with higher speed, the tape drive motor is rolling faster ! For instance Bad Cat from Rainbow Arts, encoded in 3500 bauds, once the loader is loaded, the CPC is going full blast, you can see the band rolling faster and the noise is very specific, and the title screen is coming ultra fast, and 2 minutes later, you can play !

Ah one thing : the schemes on tape for CPC are way more complicated than the ones we have on c64. Some protection schemes on CPC are not only complicated to understand, the way they work is also giving head aches.

Quote:
The only variable is decrunching, which would be about 2x slower as the same on the Amstrad due to the Amstrad CPU being about 2x the speed.
This is something where the CPC is also the winner, you can crunch a program on a PC, ensuring you get the maximum size, and then the CPC decrunch the data very fast once the loading has ended.
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Old 09 March 2016, 19:30   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
btw: The C64C or C64G has a better picture quality anyway. Old bread bins are only for collectors. If you need one for daily use nothing beats the newer models. Well, there is the problem playing digisounds with low volume on the SID 8580, but there is a fix too.
I have found why on breadbin the picture was at first very noisy and tarnish, and colors more bad than they should.

It's due to the capacitors. I gave my c64 a change with all the old shitty capacitors removed (those were not rubycon or nichicon but crap 3rd zone ones), by top quality nichicon/rubycon capacitors, and once i switch back on the c64, the image picture quality was so better !!!

Let me load Robocop for instance so that you can see

(It will take quite a bit of time lol !)

EDIT : i have loaded Robocop on my CPC and my c64 at the same time.

I gave the c64 a bit more time (i started the loading before the one on CPC), and even with that, the main code is loaded on CPC before the one on c64.

However, the CPC needs a bit more time to load the block 1 containing levels 1 and 2.

Next, oh ! i made a discovery !

The scrolling is jerkier on CPC, but faster than the (smooth but slower!) scrolling of the c64 version lol

Deliverance Stormlord II takes 1mn25 more to load than the CPC speedlocked version (and once again, i gave 20 seconds more
to my c64, and started the game loading on CPC 20 seconds later.

Last edited by dlfrsilver; 09 March 2016 at 20:11.
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Old 09 March 2016, 19:58   #369
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Actually you have to remove the useless RF modulator completely and then mount a equivalent circuit. This improves the sharpness close to the C/G models. Of course S-Video then, no crappy composite cable.

https://translate.google.com/transla...238&edit-text=
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Old 09 March 2016, 20:29   #370
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i don't use the FR modulator at all. I use the Scart connector with the round plug connected on the c64.
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Old 09 March 2016, 20:31   #371
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That doesn't matter. The modulator influences the picture quality via video plugin too. They are technically connected. It has to be removed and a new circuit gives you the better image then. Of course only needed for the older bread bins.
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:23   #372
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
That doesn't matter. The modulator influences the picture quality via video plugin too. They are technically connected. It has to be removed and a new circuit gives you the better image then. Of course only needed for the older bread bins.
I join 2 screens, one of Robocop and the second of Deliverance ingame.

So that you can see how good the display is (i use a sony trinitron).
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:33   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
I join 2 screens, one of Robocop and the second of Deliverance ingame.

So that you can see how good the display is (i use a sony trinitron).
That's quite nice colours you have there. The C64 will never be like a rainbow of colours but that is not shabby at all.
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:36   #374
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Are you sure you use S-Video over Scart? The Trinitron supports it only when you have 2 scart connections (Scart-2 jack only)? The Robocop shot doesn't look that good or is it the screenshot quality?
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:39   #375
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It's not smart to use CRTs. They give radiation and flickers. We retro people are getting old so should try and preserve our eye sight
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:42   #376
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As long as i can get CRTs i will never use a modern TV for retro games. The games look like shit, blocky as hell without the scanlines and horribly interpolated.
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:45   #377
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
As long as i can get CRTs i will never use a modern TV for retro games. They look like shit, blocky as hell without the scanlines and horribly interpolated.
For Amiga there are more options. Like the BenQ BL 702A with RGB to VGA. When pixelclock is finetuned this gives a very nice picture and I prefer it over my CRTs. Indy scandoublers also has scanline emulation but I find the best results is with the BenQ connected to the RGB

For my C64 I have a 14 inch CRT TV. Will try it later with a small flatscreen TV I will be getting for free.
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:49   #378
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The Indivision software has problem to diplay the 50Hz properly on some monitors. I think it's only useful for Workbench stuff in higher resolutions, not for lores games.
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Old 09 March 2016, 21:51   #379
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The Indivision software has problem to diplay the 50Hz properly on some monitors. I think it's only useful for Worbench stuff in higher resolutions, not for lores games.
I agree. This is one of the main reasons I went for the BenQ BL 702A 17" LED screens that supports the native Amiga RGB 15KHz, 50Hz and shows everything perfect after the pixeclock and phase is finetuned. At it's default Sharpness level 1 stuff does not look blocky. It's just so nice, colourful and everything is butter smooth.
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Old 09 March 2016, 22:27   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Are you sure you use S-Video over Scart? The Trinitron supports it only when you have 2 scart connections (Scart-2 jack only)? The Robocop shot doesn't look that good or is it the screenshot quality?
Of course ! i have indeed 2 scart connections at the back of my Trinitron TV.

the problem is actually due to the light inside the room. It's not related to the c64.
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