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Old 02 October 2002, 03:14   #1
Oscar Castillo
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AmigaOne around the corner?

Woa! How's this for good news for those waiting for AmigaOne hardware? click me

Wonder when we will actually see product? If you believe this or this very soon now. At least in Denmark.
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Old 02 October 2002, 18:18   #2
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Well, it does seem to be coming together at last. Not much point buying one right away though - the 'expected date' of OS4 is two months later!

Can a techy peep explain why there are different flavours of OS4 for Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC, please?

P.S. Denmark? Germany, surely.
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Old 02 October 2002, 20:41   #3
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An OS is worthless without software and 3rd party support. Is there a reliable website or listing, for pete's sake, referring to these?
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Old 03 October 2002, 02:42   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frederic
An OS is worthless without software and 3rd party support. Is there a reliable website or listing, for pete's sake, referring to these?
First, it's vaporware and will never come out. As soon as A1 and OS4 start coming into view, let's attack the lack of software. What can we attack when software appears?
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Old 03 October 2002, 04:08   #5
Fred the Fop
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Always well spoken. My agenda in re: Amiga is: Let it go open source. After this debacle, let it go into your hands, Twist. The Linux community may be much bigger, but I have never seen dedication and fanaticism as I have seen from Amiga OS people. It will be in good hands.
I also make a valid point to bring the attack up. What if before the impending launch of a console, there were no or a scant few titles announced? Take for example the half assed way 3DO or Atari Jaguar was handled. I find a striking similarity to the way Amiga (St)Inc has botched the whole thing up. And Atari and Trip Hawkins were far better backed and organized than Amiga (St)Inc. I mean, what the hell is the incentive for a typical Amigan to spend 600-800 bucks [very few if any non- Amigans would buy this machine, for the aformentioned reasons especially]??
As a educated techie , fanatic, or nonchalant newbie consumer, why would I do this ??
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Old 03 October 2002, 04:13   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by blackcornflake
Well, it does seem to be coming together at last. Not much point buying one right away though - the 'expected date' of OS4 is two months later!

Can a techy peep explain why there are different flavours of OS4 for Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC, please?

P.S. Denmark? Germany, surely.
I've always heard the OS is going to be bundled with the motherboard. Now if you go back and look at the link, it says the Cyberstorm PPC version will be made available in December. This can't be the same one that runs on the AmigaOne can it? I think it's a seperate release altogether.
I know the AmigaOne may just wither away and die, but I am only intrigued by from the aspect of being able to code on the platform with some of the same tools I now use for OS X and Linux.
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Old 03 October 2002, 04:16   #7
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Re: AmigaOne around the corner?

Quote:
Originally posted by Oscar Castillo
Woa! How's this for good news for those waiting for AmigaOne hardware? click me

Wonder when we will actually see product? If you believe this or this very soon now. At least in Denmark.
I think it may have something to do with the AmigaBIOS hack Hyperion implemented for piracy. Perhaps they're fine tuning a way to make OS 4 unique to the install on Cyberstorm and Blizzard systems you mentioned.
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Old 03 October 2002, 04:22   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frederic
An OS is worthless without software and 3rd party support. Is there a reliable website or listing, for pete's sake, referring to these?
I'll be placing my order for one only if I can get the development tools CD, which I understand Hyperion will be releasing as well. I can't understand why it wouldn't be free since developers are hard to come by these days for the Amiga, but I suppose they're in it to make money.
I've been debating about getting a Pegasoso motherboard instead since it has more features and dev tools are readily available.
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Old 03 October 2002, 05:05   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frederic
Always well spoken. My agenda in re: Amiga is: Let it go open source. After this debacle, let it go into your hands, Twist. The Linux community may be much bigger, but I have never seen dedication and fanaticism as I have seen from Amiga OS people. It will be in good hands.
I also make a valid point to bring the attack up. What if before the impending launch of a console, there were no or a scant few titles announced? Take for example the half assed way 3DO or Atari Jaguar was handled. I find a striking similarity to the way Amiga (St)Inc has botched the whole thing up. And Atari and Trip Hawkins were far better backed and organized than Amiga (St)Inc. I mean, what the hell is the incentive for a typical Amigan to spend 600-800 bucks [very few if any non- Amigans would buy this machine, for the aformentioned reasons especially]??
As a educated techie , fanatic, or nonchalant newbie consumer, why would I do this ??
Well, we're talking apples and oranges here. You're comparing A1 to consoles. The standalone edutainment console (ie, 3DO, CDTV, CDi) was a nice concept, but nobody wanted one, and thus they failed. The Jaguar had a host of problems: Atari's name was tainted from years of being attached to the ST, the 64-bit lie, Jack Tramiel's mismanagement, packaged with a crap game if you can even call it a game (Cybermorph) followed by equally underwhelming games, and competition by real players who'd reinvented the video game console scene.

A1 and OS4 are not game consoles, so your analogy is severely flawed. And whilst the aforementioned systems were financially better backed, you can't even claim the original Amiga dream team had any type of reasonable financial backing, yet the Amiga systems enjoyed a flourishing success in the 80's and 90's. Throwing money at a product will not make it quality, nor popular with the finicky general public. It seems neither Hawkins nor Tramiel knew this. Even Gates can't always throw money at shit and expect the brown to turn green (so he resorts to his typical bullying tactics instead...)

Incidently, if the Amiga OS goes open source, then what is in it for the people who are developing it? Should they feed their families with idealistic visions of old school Amiga fanatics who will finally accept their hard work once it is handed over to them for no cost? So it's not free source and the users reject it, staying with M$ Windows or Apple Mac who give the customer what they ask for by making their respective OS's open source, right? And more robust, crash-free OS's as a bonus!

Okaaaaaaayyyyy...
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Old 03 October 2002, 05:36   #10
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@Oscar:

Quote:
Woa! How's this for good news for those waiting for AmigaOne hardware?
That date is not valid. The dealer already confirmed in public that he's just guessing.

It's simple: Eyetech have ordered the first production run of the A1 shortly after the BIOS was finished. It will take the far-east manufacturer about four weeks to build the boards and deliver them to the UK (Eyetech). The BIOS was finished about one week ago - add four to five weeks and you'll get the date at which your preferred dealer will have the boards.

Quote:
I've always heard the OS is going to be bundled with the motherboard.
It will be. But Eyetech want to sell the boards as soon as possible, so early customers will have to wait for their copy of OS4.

Quote:
Now if you go back and look at the link, it says the Cyberstorm PPC version will be made available in December. This can't be the same one that runs on the AmigaOne can it? I think it's a seperate release altogether.
It's not the same version. The HAL of the Cyberstorm/BlizzPPC version will (obviously) be specificly supporting classic Amiga machines.

Quote:
I think it may have something to do with the AmigaBIOS hack Hyperion implemented for piracy. Perhaps they're fine tuning a way to make OS 4 unique to the install on Cyberstorm and Blizzard systems you mentioned.
Please stop spreading FUD like this. The BIOS is no "hack", it's a (heavily improved) port of PPCBoot. PPCBoot is GPLed, so coders all over the world will be able to have a close look at Hyperion's changes (and if one of them shouts "hack!" you may come back and complain).

The dongle code which is used as an anti-piracy measure will be in the same ROM, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the BIOS.

And (that was already stated months ago) the Cyberstorm/Blizzard version will require the presence of a real Kickstart ROM, they won't run on anything else than Classic machines. No need to "fine tune" anything.

Quote:
I'll be placing my order for one only if I can get the development tools CD
The dev tools will be available for free. No need to buy a CD.

Quote:
I've been debating about getting a Pegasoso motherboard instead since it has more features and dev tools are readily available.
Bla bla.

@blackcornflake

Quote:
Well, it does seem to be coming together at last. Not much point buying one right away though - the 'expected date' of OS4 is two months later!
Eyetech will sell the boards with Linux and an OS4 voucher first. AmigaOS4 will be delivered as soon as it's finished.

Quote:
Can a techy peep explain why there are different flavours of OS4 for Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC, please?
The only difference will be the SCSI driver and the "bootstrap" code. A BlizzardPPC has various libraries in the FlashROM (the famous "anti-WarpUp measures"), it's a bit tricky (but neccessary) to get rid of them before booting OS4.

@Frederic

Quote:
An OS is worthless without software and 3rd party support.
The fact that you're worrying about software support tells me that you now believe in OS4? Welcome aboard </sarcasm>

For software support, check http://www.aminet.net or go to your preferred dealer's website.

Quote:
Is there a reliable website or listing, for pete's sake, referring to these?
There's no website dedicated to OS4 software. But I could list some titles and post links if there's interest. It would help if interested persons state if they're familiar with software currently available (i.e. if they're only interested in new OS4 specific titles) and what kind of software they're interested in.
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Old 03 October 2002, 05:46   #11
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Well besides games, I am interested in office suites, database managers, reference software (anatomy, dictionary, world atlas, etc.), imaging programs, and HTML authoring (I am slowly getting into this field as a hobby). I am not familiar with what is available. I want to know of professional and commercial releases. If I (or the vast majority of potential consumers, I would safely guess) decide to buy the system, if it ever makes it to the public, I will NOT buy it for shareware and freeware. I want 3rd party and inhouse support.
This is a reasonable request.

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Old 03 October 2002, 05:57   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
W
A1 and OS4 are not game consoles, so your analogy is severely flawed.

Incidently, if the Amiga OS goes open source, then what is in it for the people who are developing it? Should they feed their families with idealistic visions of old school Amiga fanatics who will finally accept their hard work once it is handed over to them for no cost? So it's not free source and the users reject it, staying with M$ Windows or Apple Mac who give the customer what they ask for by making their respective OS's open source, right? And more robust, crash-free OS's as a bonus!

Okaaaaaaayyyyy...
Well, you can replace the consoles with such preojects as Next Step or OS/2, OK???
Same result. Disaster. No 3rd party...death of a good product.

And as for your retort regarding the remark I made concerning the open source possibilities of Amiga OS, you have a point. BUT. Tell me now, do you reallllllly expect the Amiga OS 4 to be supported to a degree that these developers can feed their families? Uh uh. Not by any stretch. If it goes open source, people will develop for it the same reason they do it now. Many programs for the Amiga now are freeware. And look at Linux. Some people actually buy it, many corporations use it as server or firewall software. People DO make money coding for it. And people DO code for it out of love or munificence. Either way in my outlook of this pitiful debacle of Amiga Inc. the developers starve their asses off.
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Old 03 October 2002, 07:07   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost


Incidently, if the Amiga OS goes open source, then what is in it for the people who are developing it? Should they feed their families with idealistic visions of old school Amiga fanatics who will finally accept their hard work once it is handed over to them for no cost? So it's not free source and the users reject it, staying with M$ Windows or Apple Mac who give the customer what they ask for by making their respective OS's open source, right? And more robust, crash-free OS's as a bonus!

Okaaaaaaayyyyy...
Having a stab at open source are we? .. Developers who work on open source in their free time do it because its their hobby/passion. Because open source developers are actually interested in what they are working on they usually do a much better job then equivalent commercial products. Having said this AmigaOS would have _a lot_ to gain if released to the open source community, anyhow that will never happen anyway.

As for Open source developers feeding their families with "idealistic visions......". Somehow I don't think so as most open source developers have a full time job, and develop for free on the side.

I'll keep an open mind about the amigaOne, but I doubt the amigaOne will ever come up with a machine that will leap frog all the current hardware as the 500 did in its day. I guess I'm too much of a retro person.
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Old 03 October 2002, 14:17   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miggy2TheMax
Having a stab at open source are we? .. Developers who work on open source in their free time do it because its their hobby/passion. Because open source developers are actually interested in what they are working on they usually do a much better job then equivalent commercial products. Having said this AmigaOS would have _a lot_ to gain if released to the open source community, anyhow that will never happen anyway.

As for Open source developers feeding their families with "idealistic visions......". Somehow I don't think so as most open source developers have a full time job, and develop for free on the side.

I'll keep an open mind about the amigaOne, but I doubt the amigaOne will ever come up with a machine that will leap frog all the current hardware as the 500 did in its day. I guess I'm too much of a retro person.
Actually, I babble daily at work in support of open source. And I have finally helped convince our system administrator to lose the Windows network bullshit in favor of Linux! At long last, I will be able to work on a stable, robust network!

So I wasn't actually knocking Open Source as a concept. My take on this was that AmigaOS is still an owned copyrighted piece of work that has been developed by people who earn a living programming. And they are very likely good at what they do. The OS would surely benefit from Open Source treatment, but at this time it is part of a machine that is attempting to commercially offer an alternative OS based upon a design superior to what we use today. I'm not gonna be stand-off'ish about AmigaOS for its being commercial and not Open Source, which was the way I thought Frederic's tone was suggesting.

And no, AmigaDOS will mosty likely not do what 1.3 did for the A500 back then. Everything was different then. The fact that history will not repeat itself really doesn't mean much. By that same token, things are also different in the PC and Mac world, as well. I'm a retro person, too, and the past always looks better to me. But I need to use a real OS and OS4 looks to be, for me, my brightest possibility to rise above the PC mire I am presently immersed in.
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Old 04 October 2002, 04:05   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
Actually, I babble daily at work in support of open source. And I have finally helped convince our system administrator to lose the Windows network bullshit in favor of Linux! At long last, I will be able to work on a stable, robust network!

So I wasn't actually knocking Open Source as a concept. My take on this was that AmigaOS is still an owned copyrighted piece of work that has been developed by people who earn a living programming. And they are very likely good at what they do. The OS would surely benefit from Open Source treatment, but at this time it is part of a machine that is attempting to commercially offer an alternative OS based upon a design superior to what we use today. I'm not gonna be stand-off'ish about AmigaOS for its being commercial and not Open Source, which was the way I thought Frederic's tone was suggesting.

And no, AmigaDOS will mosty likely not do what 1.3 did for the A500 back then. Everything was different then. The fact that history will not repeat itself really doesn't mean much. By that same token, things are also different in the PC and Mac world, as well. I'm a retro person, too, and the past always looks better to me. But I need to use a real OS and OS4 looks to be, for me, my brightest possibility to rise above the PC mire I am presently immersed in.
Glad to hear you weren't knocking open source. If only I was that lucky at my workplace... here its windbloze all the way. I'm the only linux guy here ...

The past does indeed look better too me too... *sigh* .. I like you take on OS4, will be interesting how that shall evolve.
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Old 04 October 2002, 12:03   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korodny
@Oscar:
Please stop spreading FUD like this. The BIOS is no "hack", it's a (heavily improved) port of PPCBoot. PPCBoot is GPLed, so coders all over the world will be able to have a close look at Hyperion's changes (and if one of them shouts "hack!" you may come back and complain).
If Hyperion was striving to make any improvements that would benefit the PPCboot, they'd be the first to make a big deal about it and how they are committed to open source and GPL. But in the end it's just a copy protection hack.
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Old 04 October 2002, 12:58   #17
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If Hyperion was striving to make any improvements that would benefit the PPCboot, they'd be the first to make a big deal about it and how they are committed to open source and GPL. But in the end it's just a copy protection hack.
An Open Source copy protection system? Wow, I didn't know somebody could be that stupid. Please explain how that should work. I'm very interested.
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Old 04 October 2002, 13:07   #18
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hehehe open source copy protection
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Old 04 October 2002, 16:29   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Korodny
An Open Source copy protection system? Wow, I didn't know somebody could be that stupid. Please explain how that should work. I'm very interested.
To others using the PPCboot code or extensions from Hyperion and ignoring the Amiga specific code it really makes no difference, but making AmigaOS tied to the BIOS codes is a copy protection scheme, whether you'd like to admit it or not. And don't be surprised if the Amiga extensions are not part of the GPL.
Not an open source copy protection program you idiot.

Last edited by Oscar Castillo; 04 October 2002 at 16:44.
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Old 05 October 2002, 03:56   #20
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@Oscar:

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but making AmigaOS tied to the BIOS codes is a copy protection scheme, whether you'd like to admit it or not.
AmigaOS is not tied to the AmigaOne BIOS. It will work fine with any BIOS (though that BIOS should support RDB formatted hardisks and FFS2 - for obvios reasons).

Yes there is copy protection code - BUT IT IS NOT PART OF THE BIOS. The proposed solution for Mac or Pegasos machines would be to put the copy protection code into an USB dongle. These machines do not have the A1 BIOS - but THAT WON'T STOP THEM FROM RUNNING AMIGAOS4.

The AmigaOne ROM contains two different "programs": The A1 BIOS and the copy protection code. I really hope you understand the difference between "ROM" and "BIOS".

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And don't be surprised if the Amiga extensions are not part of the GPL.
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