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Old 25 October 2013, 17:36   #181
Akira
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Originally Posted by Jack Burton View Post
And the "dream" option would be an YM2151 clockport card.
Ah, dude, we can only dream,
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Old 25 October 2013, 23:14   #182
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Akira, if you decide to go ahead with producing some tracks for this then that would be music to my ears. But don't sweat it too much on the arcade tracks, I'm all for showcasing some new stuff from a real musician. I want to say keep it around the 150Kb mark but for you I'd do my best to stretch that, seriously.

One more word on the AI of this thing I'm sorry to those of you that found it hard. Just imagine that this is the hardest, and weirdest it can get and that with some time it will be refined.
Making it hard was in some ways compensating for the unrefined AI and general ropeyness in places. Some of it is indeed a loose fit! I hope it's enough to get you learning a few moves for now. Huge thanks for all input and I'll crack on I can see loads of room for improvement and I've got some inspiration - you can kind of get stuck (with your head up your own jacksie) mulling it over without that.
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Old 26 October 2013, 03:51   #183
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150KB per track? That's plenty.
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Old 26 October 2013, 09:44   #184
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Progressing good , closer to what FF should have been.
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Old 26 October 2013, 11:25   #185
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150KB per track? That's plenty.
I was hoping you would say that Bear in mind we've only got a couple of stages so there's not much call for a truckload of tracks; 1 or 2 for the next demo would be wicked - but you choose how to proceed.

@ Bamiga - yeah, it's getting there. Should be able to sharpen it up a bit. Cheers dude.
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Old 26 October 2013, 12:15   #186
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This is really cool Final Fight is one of my favorite beat'em ups... great job!
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Old 26 October 2013, 17:28   #187
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i'm actually sipping the sprites out of the arcade roms, via the tiledata.

Just to make it right, and as test, i'm extracting Damnd. This sprite has 40 positions, and for the moment, the iff file with its sprites is 376kb. i expect him to be something like
450kb-500kb

with all the sprites (i mean for example, the part of level 1 where Damnd is, you have 6 differents sprites, meaning that it's something like 6 or 7 * 350-450kb = around 3mb.

it's bigger in memory with sprites at bitmap instead of tiles. With tiles it would be less i guess.
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Old 26 October 2013, 18:31   #188
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Tried the 1.5 alpha, great job You're getting there!

Love the music.
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Old 26 October 2013, 19:14   #189
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EDIT : ok, i have finished with Damnd the final IFF file for him is 319kb

those little punks at capcom made it for them very easy :

They take a sprite image (made from tile), and then flip them up,down,left and right !
since the amiga has not any hardware trickery for this, i have just copied, rotated, pasted and there you are

I plan to do the same for the others baddies and guy, cody and "beggar" lol

Those interested can check the file named Damnd in the zone
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Old 26 October 2013, 22:11   #190
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Very interesting! It's great to see how the original sprites were formed, but I doubt I'll manage something clever like that at this stage. Remember that the graphics are taking a reduction in size, if tiling of the characters is to be done, then I think that tiling the graphics we've got - size reduced, re-coloured, and re-detailed would be the way to go.
In terms of the speed the graphics are produced on the screen I doubt it could be faster just by using tiles -although I've found that when there is more memory things do run faster - typically it seems to take a hit when lower than around 200KB left.

.iff file for the Damnd we're currently using is 89KB
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Old 26 October 2013, 22:45   #191
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a reduction in size ? how much has it to be reduced ?
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Old 26 October 2013, 23:57   #192
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The most useful thing that could be done re. the graphics is the re-colouring of the stuff we haven't got to yet into the current palette or close. After that there's a lot of re-detailing to do which Turris' been having a damnd fine go at. If you haven't noticed that then I think we've been doing well! The reduction also means a loss of some of the frames. The means of discovering the limitations was to bung it all in the memory, have a cry and then methodically hack it to bits. I'm aiming for less than 80KB per character in the RAM. Some of the goons are far less.

If the palette could be improved and the gfx we've got already remain looking nice then that would also be great. But I don't want to mess up what's here already, if it's good enough there's no need to re-invent the wheel.
Once the gfx are re-coloured then Turri can fix them up after which I'll make maps of the blighters and bung them in - or you can if your willing to learn our laborious process.

What I'd really like to see are complete 32 and 64 colour palettes of the stages - and goons. A complete 32 colour palette with minimal changes, and documented changes would be amazing I'll experiment again with 64 colours but I'm still quite convinced that 32 is the way to go. It will always be faster.

The info re. reduction is earlier in this thread, page 6. Turrican3 has taken on a lot of that and worked with me over several months - there may be room to help there but I think you need to take stock of how we're doing it - some of the pixel work is fiddly and time consuming. We're using converted as opposed to direct rips, and have to inject a bit of character back into them. I think if you want to provide rips for the game and not academia, you should find out from Turrican3 what we've got. I'm sure it's still a lot of work.

Your rip of Damnd is the best I've seen, and the additions you've made are cool and complete. But the gfx themselves are the same as any rip. As such the hard work has been done there - and getting us to try something very different at this stage is going to be hard work as you can imagine, but I'm all for you trying.
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Old 27 October 2013, 08:04   #193
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Please check here the level 01 with your reduction 77x 89y + 24 Colors :

https://app.box.com/s/t1zrw9g0q8zre7dcj51e

Tell me what you think of it
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Old 27 October 2013, 11:12   #194
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it's good, some of the colour optimisation is very nice although some colours are washed out - there is always a compromise! But this is still just re-inventing the wheel dude. We spent a long time optimising the first stage with the characters and palette. The first stage is now uniquely Amiga after all the work that has been put into it - and the background has been re-tiled twice!
I'd suggest this:
Try another stage, and see if you can get it looking nice using the current palette - if you change a few colours then great - as long as it remains cohesive with what we've got (interfering minimally with the current character graphics).
Try the end of the first stage where Damnd appears?
Keep experimenting and please refer back to the FFAGA graphics as a guide - look at the first stage again, it is much better than you realise! Bear in mind the image I sent is a construction made from the Amiga tiles, and fit onto a 320*256 bitmap.
This conversation may be better continued via email I think - will send PM.
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Old 27 October 2013, 12:28   #195
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EDIT : argglll....... i have sipped 'Guy'.... he has alone 80 sprite positions (inside are the flipped images)

i have ripped levels up to the round 3 Perfect shiny rips
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Old 27 October 2013, 13:24   #196
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The rips are out there already man. The issue here is being reworking the graphics for proper Amiga use.
Lielo: sorry if this sounds stupid, but why do you have one palette for the whole game? Can you change it per level?
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Old 27 October 2013, 13:34   #197
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Yes, as akira said, my view is to have a palette per level. because the whole game has a big amount of colors, which can't really be reduced.

a change per level is clearly something to explore
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Old 27 October 2013, 16:27   #198
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game has a big amount of colors, which can't really be reduced.
That's not entirely true. I am pretty sure they can all be reduced. But a palette per level would surely help. As I said before the key here is not "graphic conversion" but "graphic rework". That means each and every frame needs to be reworked.
I am sure Lielo has a reason to restrict it to just one.
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Old 27 October 2013, 22:38   #199
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Now we're getting down to brass tacks! I didn't explain this properly; I'll just try to clear this up as I go...

First, we're using a 32 colour palette. Now it is true to some extent that reducing some of the stages will be difficult but in practice they can be quite drastically reduced as the arcade uses similar shades with abandon, separate palettes for different goons (with some shades from those palettes being near identical) etc. This we know.

Now we can explore a different palette for every stage but if we do, there will still be only 32 colours tops, and the palette still has to encompass the characters. So if we've say 5 characters the palette will have to be shared between them and whichever stage. So even if we have a separate palette for every stage, the colours used for the characters will still be the same.
In practice, we can actually change the palette slightly even if the character colours are affected this could be minimal or even quite large as long as the effect is good across the board and Haggar doesn't end up with a blue rinse!
Colours which are unaffected by the characters can be changed with abandon or the colours used by the characters can be re-mapped to another colour permanently if we need more for the background. We'll eventually arrive at something useable for the characters that works for every stage, encompassing the changes to the palette. But the only way to do that is to try it.

It sounds like what dlfrsilver is proposing is to have a different set of 'sprites' for each stage with a palette that suits the stage. That's fine for HD users, but is no good for .adf.
Consider that the characters will always use the same colour registers, if you change the palette then the characters will still use the same registers and would look very odd indeed without re-colouring them too meaning a separate 'sprite' file for every stage!
And besides, if the aim is to keep the characters looking much the same throughout there will be a lot of repetition within those palettes of near identical colours. Granted, it may be little quicker this way, until you consider the re-colouring of the character gfx.

Currently there have been 3 adapted stages. There are palette changes in all of them. The first stage has a free colour for the goon fades as they come through the door (which is only needed for this stage). The same colour is set to red for Sodom's stage for the lighting at the top. The 'warehouse' (where Haggar first enters the subway) has about 4 palette changes. The changes are minimal but a great change was not necessary. Usually it's just tweaking a shade here and there.

So it's not really the same palette just re-using and tweaking as much of a 'base' palette as possible, and changing the colours that are needed.

I think the best way to do that is to first reduce the colours of each stage to 32 colours, and then alter the palette to use the colour registers from the rest of the game, tweaking to suit each stage.
You will find that some of them use a surprisingly low amount of colours I think 1 of them only used about 12! Sodom's stage re-colouring was no great shakes either...

I hope that makes sense!

I can do the colour and pixel re-working with Turrican3 if you reduce the colours to 32 per stage. It won't be that easy, if I think I can do better re-colouring 'by hand' I'll tell you! But he's ripped a truckload of great stuff already contact him! And we already have all the character gfx.
And then maybe you can help us to tile this stuff...
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Old 27 October 2013, 23:09   #200
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oh yes i can help tiling if you tell me how to and with which tool
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