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Old 17 September 2016, 13:48   #181
PortuguesePilot
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Originally Posted by Zetr0 View Post
Whats the Expense:
Hmmm you would need an interface from the 68EC020 to the new 68040/60 - essentially another board - where in fact it would be cheaper to redesign one from scratch. Sadly obtaining enough 040 and or 060 CPU's that are known working and financially viable - as well to hold a warranty - is the limiting factor here.
Well, I'm aware that a new board would have to be projected from scratch. I was just admiring the strengths of the Furia and wondering a "what if" scenario of what a 68040 or even a 68060 design would accomplish. With the fierce competition of the Vampire 2, the Furia would have to need some sort of edge over it (other than being immediately available) to be competitive.

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Well it is, just massively impractical - one could argue (and rightly so) that its not mass market possible - so hence the success of the Vampire / Apollo '080 Core projects.
So it goes down to the impracticality of it all, then? I understand. But still, a pity. A full 68040/68060 board would be very fast and still preserve original hardware, without resorting to FPGA chips, hence the edge the Furia would have over the massively performing Vampire 2. Their numbers are waning after the whole Vampire 2 affair, but there are still some hardware purists around that would absolutely jump on a 68040/68060 board. I feel that the 68EC020 just isn't competitive enough - despite all the good hallmarks of the Furia - and is holding it back a bit... That's why I asked: if such a board were to be made, how much more expensive would it be over the current Furia?
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Old 17 September 2016, 14:47   #182
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In my personal opinion here, I would say that it is price verses performance. Interestingly you can add value to the product for not much extra cost.

Of course the Vampire2 spanks quite hard in this area, but at a current cost of 150 Euros and a very long waiting time will be off putting to some, with the Furia020 its available now to buy for about 100 Euro's.

What would give the Furia a better edge, well again in my opinion a few things for the developer to look at -
  • Add a cheap USB JTAG + software with Rescue Mode for the for the Furia020 that can be used on the PC
  • Make the product over all cheaper - get it to market for 70/80 Euros *[1]
  • Add a PGA socket as an optional replacement of the TQFP 020EC - thus can run 20/030 PGA CPU's*[2]
  • I would also look at obtaining a 3.x Kickrom License to bundle with the hardware. *[3]

*[1]To reduce cost perhaps the quickest way would be remove the on board RAM and off-load it to a 72pin DRAM SIMM
*[2]keep the TQFP020@25 but have the option to run a PGA 030@50MHz since the ram is not on the board and off-loaded to a 72PIN SIMM the board would have space for a PGA socket. Having a non EC CPU in the PGA socket would also allow for more memory via the 72PIN SIMM port so that you wouldn't be limited to the 8MB Z2 space as well as being PCMCIA friendly in lets call it "PGA" mode - so you can run the PCMCIA device till your hearts content.
*[3]This is a small cost by volume but adds a lot of value to the product as the user no longer needs to worry about upgrading the Kickstart ROM to make the most of their machine - its already there for the user to use - given time make it re-programable for the user to develop their own Kickstart ROM with a back up - fail safe - feature.

All that and keep it at 70/80 Euro's for the end user - That would be the edge this adaptor could leverage and sell a lot more units as it would be close to half the price of a Vampire V2 and seriously outperforms the ACA620 and the ACA630 - in fact any 020 or 030 based upgrade for the A600 - IMHO.

Last edited by Zetr0; 17 September 2016 at 15:13.
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Old 17 September 2016, 16:01   #183
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A 040 or 060 accelerator would be at a great disadvantage compared to the Vampire. The CPU itself would raise the cost a lot, as would the more complex interfacing, the board layout would be more complex and in the end you would have a board that cost twice as much (or more) as a Vampire, with a fraction of the power and none of the bells and whistles of the Vamp.

All the Fúria's current advantages – availability and cost – would be rendered void.

What should be within reach would be a 030 accelerator. It would offer the advantage of bigger memory expansion, no PCMCIA conflicts and an MMU – the latter of which the Vampire is still far away from acquiring.

That being said — does anyone know the purpose of the jumpers on the Fúria board?

Last edited by DH; 17 September 2016 at 16:02. Reason: Back to back posts
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Old 18 September 2016, 11:00   #184
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Of course the Vampire2 spanks quite hard in this area, but at a current cost of 150 Euros and a very long waiting time will be off putting to some, with the Furia020 its available now to buy for about 100 Euro's.
Things changed a bit, since the Vampire is 250€ now (or 289€ if you want the "Black" edition). Not a smart move in my opinion, as that is way too much for an FPGA based card. I guess more people will now buy the Furia instead.
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Old 18 September 2016, 11:26   #185
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Things changed a bit, since the Vampire is 250€ now (or 289€ if you want the "Black" edition). Not a smart move in my opinion, as that is way too much for an FPGA based card. I guess more people will now buy the Furia instead.
I don't think it's a matter of being "smart" but what it costs. They've been selling the pre-ordered cards at a loss, then new orders at break-even. With the increase in demand they've had to switch to professional manufacturing to meet the demand which adds further costs.

Even at €250 I'm not sure they're making any money out of it, just covering costs plus a tiny safety margin.

I have a Furia and a Vampire 2 (600, post-preorder price) by the way and I'm very glad that I bought it ages ago! However the new higher prices wouldn't deter me now and I'm still wanting one for my A1200, CD32 & A4000D
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Old 18 September 2016, 11:30   #186
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Furia is nice card and Boboo is nice person who inspired me number of times with his opensourced hardware. I was so happy to see that Furia did more that other "professional" manufacturers using near the same parts. It seems to me that Furia have better logic than them, or their intention was to slow things down on purpose? Beside FPGA stuff and in the terms when you work with original CPU I think that this card is best there is. Looking nicely I think that it will find way to the market. I m glad that there are other projects and to see things moving on that we are not in the situation that we see one mans show. One day I hope that we will unite in one team because probably that's what we need.
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Old 18 September 2016, 11:41   #187
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@AJCopland:

But that's the second price increase they did since the card is for sale, and +100€ is huge! For that price increase alone you can get a Furia...

Also, when switching to professional manufacturing with higher quantities, the unit price normally goes down, not up.
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Old 18 September 2016, 12:01   #188
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My understanding is that the costs of making the Vampire have gone up, not down, mainly the cost of the FPGA that is so vital to the project.
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Old 18 September 2016, 12:04   #189
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Personally, I want to get a Furia for my 600, and I also want to get a Vampire, although I'll get the Furia first, as I am well aware of the waiting period for a Vampire. And honestly, I want both, I don't see them as mutually exclusive, people can want one or the other or even both, or even neither, as there are other options out there. But the Furia sure looks like great value to me, that doesn't mean that the Vampire isn't also great value, considering what you get.

Anyway, a Furia is next on my purchase list
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Old 18 September 2016, 13:44   #190
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I would love to see a Furia 030 - replace the memory with fast SRAM, one could have a zero wait-state 030@50 with FPU - you wouldn't get any faster speed than that outside a Vampire, I know of a few companies that have large amounts of QFP 030's @ 40MHz


Quote:
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Things changed a bit, since the Vampire is 250€ now (or 289€ if you want the "Black" edition). Not a smart move in my opinion, as that is way too much for an FPGA based card. I guess more people will now buy the Furia instead.
You are more than welcome to your opinion my friend, personally I would say that the 150 Euro was way too low for such an adaptor as it cripples any competition in that price bracket like the Furia which, knowing the cost of the components doesn't have that much of a margin. I have always felt a 200/250 Euro for the V2 would be better positioned in the market.

Perhaps an interesting fact thats not known outside production is that the Cyclone 3 FPGA chip essentially quadrupled in price (over night) since the take-over of Altera by Intel.

This happened right in the middle of building to orders - I think the guys did admiral work finishing off with that promise - I doubt you would find a commercial business that would do that today!

The two guys that have been making all the Vampire2's must be extremely exhausted knowing the order rate.

What stated as a hobbyist product has certainly come to fruition and I could be not prouder for the Apollo / Vampire Team - they have sweated, shed blood and tears no doubt but they have brought the community a glimpse into the power of FPGA technology for the Amiga as well as the potential of tomorrow - very exciting!.

Having a V2 I can certainly say its most assuredly worth 250 Euros if you have it for this hobby - if not sell some unnecessary stuff like family members - there is nothing on the market (68k at least) that can come anywhere near it, let alone for the A600!

Do you remember the time when the A600 was the most unloved of all desktop models?

not any more....
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Old 18 September 2016, 13:58   #191
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@Zetro I fully agree my friend still £ for £ the best upgrade to seen on the A600 . The development team cannot control component prices and anyway they do it out of love for a machine that was unloved for many years, so I am fully behind them as most Amigans are
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Old 18 September 2016, 16:48   #192
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The smartest thing the Vampire crew could do is raise the price of their card — selling it at a price that hardly broke even was decidedly non-smart since it meant they never had the cash to spare to buy necessary components at necessary quantities or to ever set up proper manufacturing (the Fúria is now made by Lotharek, who also makes the MiST, why couldn't he make Vampires as well?).



That being said — does anyone know what the SW1 and SW2 jumpers on the Fúria do?
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Old 19 September 2016, 10:38   #193
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New firmware test result:



Official release soon. Stay tuned ;o)
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Old 19 September 2016, 10:41   #194
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Nice!
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Old 19 September 2016, 17:32   #195
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quite fast
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Old 20 September 2016, 13:56   #196
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I would say the fastest 020 accelerator ever made ;o)
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Old 27 September 2016, 18:31   #197
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@Zetr0
Two year old project.
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Old 28 September 2016, 13:47   #198
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Boboo, what is the use of the SW1/SW2 jumpers?
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Old 28 September 2016, 18:37   #199
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Boboo, what is the use of the SW1/SW2 jumpers?
Furia EC020 R2, SW1 and SW2 not used, Furia EC020 R1 jumpers for Multiplier ICS502.
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Old 28 September 2016, 23:35   #200
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So the card can't be switched off then?
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