English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > News

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 26 July 2012, 21:37   #141
tom256
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 121
TotO relax

Quote:
This board will be great for WHDLoad.
I will be happy to get a 28MHz stable and cold computer all the year

Overclocking doesn't reduce CPU lifetime. Its heat nad voltage

About heat, well lets see for MC68SEC0000 20MHz:

3.3V * 15mA = 50mW = 0.05W.
My Core i7 has 130W. Do you see difference???

Even overclocked, this CPU won't even get warm!!!!!!

Quote:
And we speak about a A500 with 68K CPU... More power for doing what ?
Playing games ? Sorting the WB icons ? XD
If you dont need 50MHz you can switch to 7MHz. What's the problem?

I hope in future Amiga Turbo board will have USB in standard.
I really miss it in Amiga computers

BTW Why do you think that 28MHz CPU card will be more compatible than 50MHz???

Last edited by tom256; 26 July 2012 at 23:43.
tom256 is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 26 July 2012, 22:11   #142
Sim085
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lija
Posts: 317
I am interestedas well ...
Sim085 is offline  
Old 26 July 2012, 23:38   #143
kamelito
Zone Friend
kamelito's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: France
Posts: 830
Nice, is it possible to put and access cartridges (Action Replay...) in one or more kickstart slot and access it through an NMI interrupt ?
Kamelito
kamelito is offline  
Old 28 July 2012, 00:57   #144
mr.vince
Cheesy crust

mr.vince's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hawk's Creek
Age: 41
Posts: 1,374
Action Replay support is built it. Just flash the ROM, then attach a button to the card (plugging it on a jumper), that's it.
mr.vince is offline  
Old 28 July 2012, 01:13   #145
alexh
Thalion Webshrine
alexh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oxford
Posts: 11,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by desiv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000 View Post
would need IDE working on KS1.3 so for me I'm going to have to pass sadly.
What's the possibility of a custom 1.3 ROM with the DRIVER from 2.x (or ??) to support the hard drive???
Such a solution already exists and has been used on the A600 and other 16-bit Amiga's equipped with the IDE68k board and so should work fine with Zeus

http://aminet.net/package/util/boot/kick13scsipatch
alexh is offline  
Old 28 July 2012, 09:15   #146
TotO
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: France
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom256 View Post
Overclocking doesn't reduce CPU lifetime.
About heat, well lets see for MC68SEC0000 20MHz:
3.3V * 15mA = 50mW = 0.05W.
My Core i7 has 130W. Do you see difference???
All electronics components are affected by using them out of range. It's why manufacturers give specs. But, in most case the lifetime is so long that you can't encounter the problem and though that nothing change.

It's not because this CPU have a very low power consumption that you can overclock it to the infinite w/o problem "compared to your Core i7 CPU"...

A good old Motorola 68000 is only 1,35W. Overclock it to 100% and it fail and goes very hot... You though it was only 2,70W ??? WRONG (shortcut)
Do you see the difference ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom256 View Post
If you dont need 50MHz you can switch to 7MHz. What's the problem?
BTW Why do you think that 28MHz CPU card will be more compatible than 50MHz???
If I don't need 50MHz, instead of switching to 7MHz I may not buy a card too.
28MHz don't overclock so much the CPU and is already 4 times the original speed... It's just far enough for most uses, as WHDLoad.
Don't expect to run intensive 2D/3D programs... At 50MHz it will be slow too.

Do you remember the PC "turbo switch" to make games don't crash or run to fast because that affect the program timing ?

A multiple frequency choice on the boot menu will be just great to increase compatibility.
TotO is offline  
Old 28 July 2012, 10:23   #147
mr.vince
Cheesy crust

mr.vince's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hawk's Creek
Age: 41
Posts: 1,374
We'll look into adding more clock options. For the record... all of this is done in the FPGA which can be reprogrammed as it's getting its code from the onboard flash memory.
mr.vince is offline  
Old 28 July 2012, 15:02   #148
TotO
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: France
Posts: 57
Great for all. Many thanks!
TotO is offline  
Old 28 July 2012, 20:42   #149
tom256
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by TotO View Post
All electronics components are affected by using them out of range. It's why manufacturers give specs. But, in most case the lifetime is so long that you can't encounter the problem and though that nothing change.

Not really. For example MC68040/25MHz and 40Mhz is the same CPU. Just 40MHz pass test with 40Mhz clock, 25MHz probably didn't or wasn't tested.
Similar case is MC68030, or Intel CPU.

BTW There was many overclocked CPU card with MC68030(for example 33MHz to 40Mhz), and they are still working for 15 years. The only problem is RTC baterry. I didn't seen CPU dead because of overclocking or age.
Look at ZXspectrum. 30 years. Chips still working!!!!!!


The enemy is always temperature and high voltage!!!
You could read something more about it. I'm overclocking Computers for 15 years, and didn't kill any. 3 victimis was graphics cards, but dead because different reasons, 3 pairs of DDR2 RAMs (not sure why, probably temperature, or faulty chips), but still never CPU.

Quote:
It's not because this CPU have a very low power consumption that you can overclock it to the infinite w/o problem "compared to your Core i7 CPU"...

A good old Motorola 68000 is only 1,35W. Overclock it to 100% and it fail and goes very hot... You though it was only 2,70W ??? WRONG (shortcut)
Do you see the difference ?
But still 2,7W is much, much more than 0,05W. Try to get chip hot with 0,05W. CPU will start dispatch much heat when you raise voltage. With only overclocking it won't rise much. Anyway new MC680000 won't need seatsink. See numbers???? old Motorola 1.35W. No HEATSINK!!!! Why new CPU with 0.05W would need one??? New CPU after overclocking will never hit 0,5W!!!!! I would say about maybe 0.2W, but its still less than old Motorla MC68000. Much less.

Or better try minimig guys about compability and problems with 50Mhz CPU.

Quote:
If I don't need 50MHz, instead of switching to 7MHz I may not buy a card too.
28MHz don't overclock so much the CPU and is already 4 times the original speed... It's just far enough for most uses, as WHDLoad.
Don't expect to run intensive 2D/3D programs... At 50MHz it will be slow too.

Do you remember the PC "turbo switch" to make games don't crash or run to fast because that affect the program timing ?
Sure. The problems was mainly because of build in coprocessor, with very very old games. Anyway I didnt saw any programs which has problems with to fast CPU. But still it was primitive DOS, not workbench,
tom256 is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 05:49   #150
Mr B
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptyerman View Post
Overclocking a CPU is fine and does not cause damage, though it can cause instability if clocked too much.
Actually, increasing the frequency does increase the heat generated at the same voltage. It will use more Amp's, of course. However, overclocking alone wont destroy a CPU, as you said, it might be unable to switch reliably, and crash, but to cause permanent damage it has to overheat, or burn out through over voltage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom256 View Post
The enemy is always temperature and high voltage!!!
You could read something more about it. I'm overclocking Computers for 15 years, and didn't kill any. 3 victimis was graphics cards, but dead because different reasons, 3 pairs of DDR2 RAMs (not sure why, probably temperature, or faulty chips), but still never CPU.
Electromigration could in theory be accelerated by over-clocking, and as such shorten lifespan, but the concept of killer electromigration is debated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom256 View Post
New CPU after overclocking will never hit 0,5W!!!!! I would say about maybe 0.2W, but its still less than old Motorla MC68000. Much less.
If memory isn't messing me up completely, you can pretty much say that doubling the frequency doubles the Amp usage, and as such, doubles the heat output. If your figure of 0.05w is correct, it's not likely to be a problem. (In reality it's actually more likely to less then double the heat output & power draw, but for the sake of argument)
A old Motorola chip asked to do 100% overclock simply cant copy, and pretty much short circuits, causing it to heat up, and act like a small firecracker. In the unlikely event that you find one that actually can take the 100% overclock, it shouldn't get nearly as hot.
Mr B is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 06:12   #151
CUF
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: St-Hubert/Qc/Canada
Posts: 20
I want one!!!

Great project guys!
CUF is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 10:40   #152
jimbob
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kilmacolm
Age: 39
Posts: 616
I reckon the massive overclock is possible on this chip because it's target is low power embedded systems not high performance multimedia machines, (like amiga).

As for heat, digital circuits draw current and dissipate power mostly only when bits are changing state. Change state faster and the average current therefore increases. But double the speed~double the current~QUADRUPLE the power or heat. Power is proportional to the square of the current.

ie. chips get hotter faster than the clock gets faster. Chips will fail to work but still get hot when the overclock is so great that they cannot attain valid logic levels in the time allowed by the higher frequency. This is why you increase voltage to achieve a stable overclock. The higher voltage causes more current to flow allowing the chip to reach valid logic levels in time. But again, power increases in proportion to the square of this current increase. Overclocking in this style is a double whammy of heat problems.

The fact that this is not necesarry on this chip tells me that the 7Mhz spec must be a big underclock for power considerations otherwise this would never work at 50Mhz. If the minimig has proved this chip is good at 50Mhz, and you don't care about power consumption, (which is still low, just not decades of battery life low), I don't see a problem. The fact that the reprogrammable design allows the designers to easily add a variable speed option is pretty smart though. Great project, I hope it is successful.

Last edited by jimbob; 29 July 2012 at 19:44. Reason: spelling
jimbob is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 19:03   #153
Sim085
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lija
Posts: 317
After reading all four pages I must admit that I am now even more interested (with a level of excitement too!!). The specifications given so far looks great. I was wondering from where will we be able to order this? Will we have a pre-order option?

I just have a question (which comes from my limited understanding of hardware, so please forgive me if such question is stupid); This card will emulate the 68000 processor right? if yes, then can't this same FPGA chip emulate the AGA chipset as well? Making the A500 on par with the A1200!

My question is just out of curiosity only, regardless of the answer, if specs remain like this then I am in for one for sure.
Sim085 is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 19:16   #154
Mr B
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim085 View Post
I just have a question (which comes from my limited understanding of hardware, so please forgive me if such question is stupid); This card will emulate the 68000 processor right? if yes, then can't this same FPGA chip emulate the AGA chipset as well? Making the A500 on par with the A1200!
Yes, it will emulate the 68000. We are just bored out of our mind, and talk about the effect of over-clocking the physical CPU as if it would matter.

Dude, please. Read the thread again.

Last edited by Mr B; 29 July 2012 at 19:53. Reason: Crap, them bad habits again...
Mr B is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 19:43   #155
jimbob
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kilmacolm
Age: 39
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
Yes, it will emulate the 68000. We are just bored out of our mind, and talk about the effect of over-clocking the physical CPU as if it would matter.

Dude, please. Read the thread again.
B!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.vince View Post
"One board to rule them all..."

68SEC000 CPU running at 7 or 50 MHz
.
.
.
Your impatience is showing. 2nd line of the thread says it is a real 68000 not emulated.
jimbob is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 19:43   #156
kamelito
Zone Friend
kamelito's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: France
Posts: 830
No plan to do a kind of indivision ecs built in?
Kamelito
kamelito is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 19:49   #157
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,173
The problem with trying to use the FPGA to do more than just the control functions is that you would need to hook it up to more places on the Amiga..

Need it to simulate an IndiECS (Assuming you had a powerful enough FPGA, which would probably shoot the price WAY up), you need to hook it up to the Denise chip as well.
Total redesign...

Need it to do AGA?
You need to hook it up to ..er.. um.. everywhere.. the whole board.. :-)

The reason it can do the RAM and IDE is that those can pull right off of the CPU.

desiv
desiv is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 19:55   #158
Mr B
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Your impatience is showing. 2nd line of the thread says it is a real 68000 not emulated.
I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. I'm quite aware that the CPU isn't emulated in FPGA.
Mr B is offline  
Old 29 July 2012, 20:43   #159
jimbob
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kilmacolm
Age: 39
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I'm hoping that wasn't directed at me. I'm quite aware that the CPU isn't emulated in FPGA.
Yes it was, sorry if I didn't catch you were being sarcastic when you replied to sim085

"yes it will emulate the 68000"

I though you meant it and then told sim085 to read the thread.

You know how it is with tone of voice and forum posts.
jimbob is offline  
Old 30 July 2012, 10:44   #160
Sim085
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lija
Posts: 317
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I'm quite aware that the CPU isn't emulated in FPGA.
...
Sim085 is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
was there ever a PowerPC accelerator for A500 1000 2000? boing_1000 request.Other 6 04 April 2014 08:12
WTB A500 accelerator or Microbotics: VXL RAM 32 lurch MarketPlace 0 14 June 2012 11:43
Internal IDE for A500(and possibly 1000/2000) coze Hardware mods 50 18 August 2010 11:20
Possible group buy: SOJ -> DIP 20 adapter PCBs for old accelerator RAM / A500 hacking Secret Vampire support.Hardware 5 21 February 2010 16:55
A1200 internal ram vs accelerator ram Foster support.Hardware 3 24 March 2008 15:43

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.68866 seconds with 12 queries