Compact flash adapter for 2 CF cards

[Old Fool]

It would be nice to have 2 4gb cf cards as a hard drive with A1200 so you could easily back up your files with copy paste method. No worry if the other card will fail you have always a working hard drive in Amiga containing all the precious files

That's why I'm asking which one of these is better in this purpose?

1. http://www.vesalia.de/e_ide25cfx2hdd.htm

2. http://www.vesalia.de/e_cf2xide40ladapter.htm

The price is same. Has anyone had experiences of either of those adapters?

[Akira]

There's one by INdividual Computers, isn't it?
Anyway, from those two, the first one already has a 2.5" port do i'd go for that, but you'll need the HD craddle.

[Old Fool]

Ok thanks for the answer. I don't have the cradle so maybe the second one would do the thing. I remember how it was difficult to live with 2,5" IDE hard drive cause it was loose and moved here to there all the time.

[Akira]

But the second one needs a 3.5" to 2.5" adapter and then you need to power it from the floppy connector or elsewhere. I believe the first option is best, even if you don't have the cradle you can probably safely let it rest on top of the motherboard.

Even if you put the 3.5" adapter you linked to it will be loose and move around if you don't have the cradle.

[Old Fool]

Good point Akira! The 1. adapter can be attached with ordinary 2.5" 44-pin cable to the mobo so this would do the trick with less hassle. I can always build some kind of mechanism to hold it steady.

[Old Fool]

By the way will the CWB easily detect this kind of system? I mean if the other CF contains my current CF-card from my single HD system and to the other slot I put another CF card that have WB3.1 (later to wipe it out to make perfect back-up copy via CWB). The adapter must have some kind of switch master / slave to boot the OS from the right card...

[prowler]

Originally Posted by Old Fool

By the way will the CWB easily detect this kind of system? I mean if the other CF contains my current CF-card from my single HD system and to the other slot I put another CF card that have WB3.1 (later to wipe it out to make perfect back-up copy via CWB). The adapter must have some kind of switch master / slave to boot the OS from the right card...

If you are looking to insert both CF cards in the adapter and have one configured as Master and the other as Slave, then it would seem that the second (40-pin) adapter is the one you require, since no Master/Slave mode selection is mentioned for the 44-pin adapter on the first link.

Be careful, though. Both are described only as 'HDD replacement'. You need to be certain that two CF cards mounted in these adapters will appear as two independently-addressable hard drives configured as Master and Slave on the IDE channel, and not, for example, as a single hard drive configured as Master or Slave with a total capacity equal to the sum of those of the CF cards.

[Old Fool]

Originally Posted by prowler

If you are looking to insert both CF cards in the adapter and have one configured as Master and the other as Slave, then it would seem that the second (40-pin) adapter is the one you require, since no Master/Slave mode selection is mentioned for the 44-pin adapter on the first link.

Be careful, though. Both are described only as 'HDD replacement'. You need to be certain that two CF cards mounted in these adapters will appear as two independently-addressable hard drives configured as Master and Slave on the IDE channel, and not, for example, as a single hard drive configured as Master or Slave with a total capacity equal to the sum of those of the CF cards.

Thank you for the info!

Yes I have some certain concerns about this. One is will the HD Toolbox recognize the other card also and will it be possible to make same kind of partions as the master card have (that contains my current OS with games and such). I wish also that two cards doesn't cause any problems with all the software I'm using...

[fgh]

Never used a dual CF adapter, but I'm quite happy with this backup method:
I use the windows program PD Image Creator to make an image of the whole card.
The image can then be mounted in WinUAE, and you can transfer files to the card or another card.

It also lets you write back the whole image to the card (or another identical card), but I've been told such a full block by block write messes with the wear leveling of the card, and should therefore be avoided.

[prowler]

Originally Posted by Old Fool

Thank you for the info!

Yes I have some certain concerns about this. One is will the HD Toolbox recognize the other card also and will it be possible to make same kind of partions as the master card have (that contains my current OS with games and such). I wish also that two cards doesn't cause any problems with all the software I'm using...

You're welcome. Please note, however, that I have no experience myself of configuring a dual CF card adapter for use on my A1200's IDE controller.

The real problem is that all CF card adapters (both the IDE and PCMCIA types) are notoriously difficult to assess for compatibility with the Amiga without practical experience of a particular make and model. Having said that, I should imagine that Vesalia would not be offering those adapters for Amiga use if they were not compatible, so you've nothing to worry about on that issue.

However, I know for sure that dual CF-IDE adapters fall into at least two categories:

1. Those which will not allow configuration of two cards as Master and Slave, respectively, and
2. Those which will not - even when fitted with a single card only, and whether it is configured as Master or Slave - allow another device to be connected to the same IDE channel to make use of the unused mode!

When fitted with two cards, you might reasonably expect these two types of adapter to have those characteristics I described in my last post.

That is, you would expect the first type to be (i) of total capacity equal to the sum of the individual card capacities, (ii) configurable as Master or Slave and (iii) that it would co-operate with another device connected to the same channel and configured as Slave or Master, respectively.

On the other hand, you would expect the second type to be (i) able to configure the two cards as independently-addressable Master and Slave devices and (ii) unable to accommodate another device on the same channel.

In reality, though, it doesn't seem to be that simple...

The good news is that this configuration problem is the only one you will face. Solve this, and all the HDToolbox, OS and software problems will go away.

[Old Fool]

Thanks again Prowler for great info!

Yes I unfortunately now how some CF adapters won't work with A1200! Therefore I wouldn't want to ruin my system that I finally got working

Well must see that PD Image Creator will it be better device for back-ups. I'm not keen on taking the cover of all the time to access my CF-card inside the A1200 but maybe I can deal with that.

[Arnie]

I use 2 CF adapters on a 3 way 44 pin Ide cable, one is set as master and one is set as slave.

The only drawback is you need a card in the master adapter if you have a card in the slave adapter or the machine wont boot.

It's worth noting that this happens on my adapters, others have stated that there are adapters that don't suffer from this issue.

[Synthesize Me]

I recently bought a dual CF HDD adapter from vesalia and haven't been able to get it working properly... I haven't really spent all too much time on try to solve the problem, but it is one of those where the CF cards are on the same side of the pcb and facing two different directions. I fear that maybe its one of those adapters that you manually need to add jumper pins to for some odd reason.
But as for the two links you posted, both seem to look like they would be fairly compatible, I would go for the second option.
If I get my adapter to work and figure out how to properly set up and run everything, I'll let ya know.

Good luck!

[Old Fool]

Originally Posted by Synthesize Me

I recently bought a dual CF HDD adapter from vesalia and haven't been able to get it working properly... I haven't really spent all too much time on try to solve the problem, but it is one of those where the CF cards are on the same side of the pcb and facing two different directions. I fear that maybe its one of those adapters that you manually need to add jumper pins to for some odd reason.
But as for the two links you posted, both seem to look like they would be fairly compatible, I would go for the second option.
If I get my adapter to work and figure out how to properly set up and run everything, I'll let ya know.

Good luck!

Thanks for this! Yes, please inform how things are going with this!

[Old Fool]

I'm now close to order this just to try it out:

http://www.vesalia.de/e_ide25cfx2hdd.htm

If there is a someone that have bought this same device and have had problems to get it work with Amiga i would really appreciate if he/she would say it right now

[Turran]

I bought two of those, but I have not yet tested them. If you like, I can stick 2 CF cards in it and into an A1200 and see how it behaves.

[Turran]

Well, they pop up as two different cards in windows atleast. Same as if you were to plug them in individually. One of the cards I put in was from my camera. I wanted to copy the images from it before testing it in the Amiga but its soooo slow. I've now waited for 2 minutes for it to load the icon images for ~20 pictures. Had to abort it as it totally hung. I put it in my other external CF reader and no problem moving the images over.

More to come.

Update, well, not sure what to tell you. I have a 1 GB kingston and a 4 GB kingston in it. Both look good at first glance, but the 1 GB card just wont work as it should. I pop it in the normal CF reader and all is well with it. I run an error scan (with HD Tune PRO 5.00) on it and its fine. As soon as I pop it in the new adapter and run an error scan on it, its ok for about 2-3 seconds, then it finds an error and just hangs the whole program.

I loaded it in winuae and even winuae hangs totally when trying to read the configuration from it.

I removed the 4gb card but no difference. I put it on the other side (other slot). No difference. Just not reliable with the 1GB kingston card. Worth noting is that the 1GB card works just fine in a real amiga with another CF->IDE adapter.

Popped only the 4gb card in and no problems what so ever.

Pop 1gb card back in external CF reader, no problem with it, so its defenetly the new adapter.

Could it be the adapter? I bought two so tested with the other one as well. Same thing.

Ran the Ultimate Boot CD and totally wiped off all partitions from the 1gb card. No difference.

Pop in a small 40mb CF card. No problem

Seems to have no problems with the 4GB card and a 40Mb card. Formatted one as PFS/3 and the small one with FFS. Looking good.

Popped it into the Amiga 1200 and .. it only saw DH1 which was not bootale. Of course, the card you want as DH0 and be bootable should be the top card. Switched them over and it boots nicely. You'll need idefix or something else to see the other card once booted.

At first when I tried to connect the IDE cable, it would not fit. The plastics on the "disk" is too narrow. Then I figured out what the little adapter that came with the "disk" is for. Its a small extension to the IDE socket so that a normal cable fits. This makes the disk about 2cm longer so if you have a tight fit, it will be even tighter, especially if you plan on using the default hard disk cradle in the 1200.
2 screws fit though if you plan to use it. More then enough and since its a little bit longer, there is no problem reaching/replacing both CF cards without disassembling much.

In conclusion, they work very well. I like the solid feel to them. Only question is why it does not like my 1BG kingston card. Also, why make the housing so tight that you can not fit a normal IDE cable to it without a small extension. 2-3 mm less plastic would have made the cable fit directly instead.

Also, if you decide not to use it, the small extension piece fits nicely directly to the amiga IDE port. You can then save it from wear if you switch harddrives often. Or you can use it to raise the ide port a bit. Very good for those other CF-IDE adapters without a cable as you wont have to remove/cut the top shield plating for them to fit when the IDE port is raised 2 cm.

[prowler]

Originally Posted by Turran

I run an error scan (with HD Tune PRO 5.00) on it and its fine.

Hi Turran,

Thanks for mentioning the program. A useful addition to my toolbox.

[Old Fool]

Turran, thanks A LOT for your simply great answer

My only question remains does the use of idefix cause any compatibility problems when playing WHDLoad games? That is if you want to use the second card that have to be handled by software since both cards use the same IDE-slot.

[Old Fool]

Also I have read many posts that claim that idefix won't work properly with CF cards at all...

[fgh]

I always avoided dual adapters as I read several stories about them giving problems on a1200/a600.

Regarding IDEFix and CF cards
The only compatibility problem I am aware of is that IDEFix is only compatible with fixed type CF cards.
Removable type cards will work with a patch made by Doobrey. (More info)
With a removable type card your amiga will hang/freeze during boot when loading unpatched IDEFix.

Perhaps this adapter that lets you access the CF card without opening the case would be an alternative?

[Old Fool]

Originally Posted by fgh

I always avoided dual adapters as I read several stories about them giving problems on a1200/a600.

Regarding IDEFix and CF cards
The only compatibility problem I am aware of is that IDEFix is only compatible with fixed type CF cards.
Removable type cards will work with a patch made by Doobrey. (More info)
With a removable type card your amiga will hang/freeze during boot when loading unpatched IDEFix.

Perhaps this adapter that lets you access the CF card without opening the case would be an alternative?

OK, thank for your info! Yes if you want to be sure with compatibility issues then the single cf-adapter is much safer option.

That Amibay device is very interesting. The biggest thing is I don't want to modify the case so not interested in carving my case with a knife

[fgh]

Another option is to use a longer IDE cable and having the cf stick out the a1200 rear trap door.

[Old Fool]

Originally Posted by fgh

Another option is to use a longer IDE cable and having the cf stick out the a1200 rear trap door.

Yes this have had in my mind too. Actually my case have already somenone carved a clean hole for CD-ROM ide cable that I myself haven't used at all. My biggest worry is that my short IDE cable is so tight on the mobo that I have to use real force to get it out

Well I must get the force with me

[fgh]

Sounds like a longer IDE cable would be a better choice
But you might need a buffered IDE interface as well - not sure how long the cable can be without it.

[Turran]

Did not have any problems reading both disks (4GB and 40MB) in the real Amiga 1200 with idefix installed. From what I've read about almost all CF->IDE adapters they bypass the check if the card is removable and just report it as "fixed disk"

Worked with this adapter anyway.

I've had problems with the PCMCIA -> CF adapter though. It wont work at all unless the card is specifically set to static, but never had any problems with the CF -> IDE adapters. Of course, I've only bought them from Amiga retailers, so perhaps not all of them have this functionality, if bought elsewhere.

And as for your second question, there are no problems running whdload games from the second disk as far as I could tell.

Edit: To test this, I took the 4GB card that is hardware set as removable (I know because it does not work in the PCMCIA adapter), put it in this adapter and into the PC. I loaded the Windows XP install CD and XP finds the disk just fine. If the adapter had not "tricked" the ide controller that the CF card is of "fixed" type, XP would not have allowed you to install to it.
So they do indeed contain hardware that makes it looks as if it is of "fixed" type. That is good (but once again, so does all other CF->IDE converters i've tested too, so not exactly a selling point).

[fgh]

Many of those cheap single unit IDE-CF adapters are passive, so there is no manipulation of any sort there at least.
I only know about the TrueIDE and one industrial CF-SATA adapter I stumbled across that does this manipulation, and they specifically advertise the feature.
I'm sure others exist as well, but I certainly don't have the impression that 'most adapters' do this.

To have such a feature requires that the adapter has cirquitry that reads and processes the ATA stream, and overrides certain values in the reply to the IDENTIFY DEVICE command.
(So if you see no chips on the adapter you know it cannot be doing this)

The PCMCIA driver compactflash.device works with both removable and fixed type CF cards, so you cannot tell the type of card like that.
One way to tell is to connect it to a PC via IDE and run Windows diskpart, type 'list volume', and see if it shows up as 'removable' or 'partition'.
(Be aware that when connected via USB all cards appear as removable)

Edit: I see from both Vesalia and Delock that the adapter is sold as 'bootable', which for windows would require that the cards are reported as fixed.
However Delock also sell the 44pin IDE-SD adapter (the same one you see everywhere), as 'bootable'. Mine looks identical, and it reports SD cards as removable.
For SD cards it's only a firmware question, as the adapter needs to produce the ATA stuff anyway, so it's possible that they have different firmware...
I've sent an email to Delock to clarify

Edit 2:
Got a reply from delock already.
They say the adapters are bootable in linux, but not in Windows without software tricks.
So the CF adapter doesn't change the CF's reply, and their SD adapter is reporting cards as removable like mine.

[Turran]

Thanks for the clarification fgh =)

[Old Fool]

In this forum you'll get so good service that I decided to order one adapter just for fun! Thanks dudes

[Turran]

Hey, any reason I can think of to get to boot up ye old Amiga is reason enough for me =)

Edit: Also, I bought a 16 GB CF card and it works fine as well in this adapter. Still just the 1GB Kingston I'm having problems with.

[Old Fool]

All right! The Delock adapter finally arrived and last night I installed it. It seems to work OK. The only bad thing I noticed is that the Amiga's yellow hard drive light is constantly on. My single card adapter keep the light going on only when accessing disk. Now I don't know wheter my Amiga is crashed or is it just loading a while

The other thing is that I cannot get my Classic Workbench to access the second CF card. Is there any other way than Idefix software to access the other card? I would appreciate if there would be free drivers to get the card show up

[Old Fool]

I Installed demo of Idefix97 and there was an error while installing. First the partions of second CF card did show up right after installation finished. After re-boot they were gone. It seems the software was only partly installed. Any ideas?

[Old Fool]

This is the error:

STARTUP: Can't read "s:user-startup" file in line 308.

[Old Fool]

Well if I click the file in my C-folder "IDEfix" all the partions show up!

Could it be so that I just manually add somehow this exe to my startup-sequence?

[FOL]

Originally Posted by Old Fool

Well if I click the file in my C-folder "IDEfix" all the partions show up!

Could it be so that I just manually add somehow this exe to my startup-sequence?

Idefix should already be in your startup if you installed.
If not then you can add it.

[Old Fool]

I added the Idefix to my user-startup -menu. A1200 now finds all the partions but man I told that CWB is acting really strange now!

Resolution is bigger, some icon colours are different RUN-menu won't allways work, floppy disks give me random errors etc. etc.

Could it be so that this dual CF-adapter is causing unusual system behaviour when using CWB? My single cf-adapter worked fine without almost any probs. I wonder is it the adapter or the demo version of idefix97, after all this old software is not optimized for CWB I think...

[Jope]

The idefix command should be right in the beginning of your startup-sequence..

What is a user-startup menu? I know of an s:user-startup script.

[Old Fool]

Originally Posted by Jope

The idefix command should be right in the beginning of your startup-sequence..

What is a user-startup menu? I know of an s:user-startup script.

OK, thanks. Should it be just "C:Idefix"?

Well it was this error that I got with idefix installation. Yes, I added the line in the s:user-starup script.

Also without any lines in the startup sequences when clicking the idefix.exe I get the 2nd CF-card visible. But it's like the card #1 and #2 wouldn't work together since quite soon when I try to transfer files between two cards the card #1 always corrupts and folders and files cannot be accessed, all kind of weird things start to happen. Re-boot solves the situation to back to square.

I have to say that I haven't ever liked Idefix, this software has always had something against me...

[Jope]

Yeah, that's enough.

Idefix is a bit finicky with some removable cf cards, you might want to search around this forum for a patch. Sorry, I can't remember what keywords would get you the results the fastest right now.

[I.Did]

/me Wonder if Thomas is going to popup with some words of wisdom, apart from what everybody has said already