English Amiga Board Amiga Lore


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Retrogaming General Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 03 February 2012, 00:29   #81
Thorham
Computer Nerd

Thorham's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rotterdam/Netherlands
Age: 41
Posts: 2,960
Quote:
Originally Posted by _ThEcRoW View Post
Hummm, spreadsheets wasn't the thing Jay Miner tought when creating the Amiga...
Amiga hardware still isn't optimal for games.
Thorham is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 03 February 2012, 00:51   #82
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44
Posts: 6,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorham View Post
Amiga hardware still isn't optimal for games.
Er, yes it was back in the 80's.
Galahad/FLT is offline  
Old 03 February 2012, 02:45   #83
P-J
EAB veteran... Honest!
P-J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Warwickshire, England
Age: 37
Posts: 1,144
Send a message via MSN to P-J
Ladies, please. Let's get back to the real issue which is why you're not teaming together to make a 1:1 port of Sonic as we speak.

P-J is offline  
Old 12 February 2012, 13:16   #84
mikele
Registered User
mikele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: poland
Posts: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
I always thought that Superfrog was fairly close to Sonic, in terms of speed, scrolling and 'feel', as well as the levels being similar in design. Am I wrong?
Well, providing that you're referring to 8 bit version of Sonic (Master System and Game Gear) you're right, they were fairly close in terms of speed/smoothness. But when it comes to comparison between Super Frog (nice game btw) and Genesis/MegaDrive's rendition of Sonic.. well, computer says NO.
mikele is offline  
Old 12 February 2012, 13:53   #85
Coagulus
Gets there in the end...

Coagulus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Wales
Posts: 606
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-J View Post
Ladies, please. Let's get back to the real issue which is why you're not teaming together to make a 1:1 port of Sonic as we speak.

I have to be honest here, I always preferred computer conversions to have the feel of the original but be a version in it's own right. It was the differences that still make me want to play those versions now.

These days with anything (handheld, phone, computer, console) more powerful than a 386 you can play Megadrive games perfectly anyway.
Coagulus is offline  
Old 12 February 2012, 15:54   #86
lordofchaos
TinkerTailorContentMaker

lordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 39
Posts: 1,002
I still think a perfect conversion of sonic would and could have been possible on the Amiga but it would have been highly unlikely, we know the evidence is there, just look at the games/demos that stick a middle finger up to it`s own hardware limitations..

The coding talent pool did exist to pull it off but was spread over too many different developers and demo sceners, it would have taken a massive effort to bring them all together and work on the game.

Coders have been and will continue to defy the limit that is set out in front of them. The real trouble was down to publishers and lack of real interest to develop the game on the Amiga, at the time Sega was really pushing the Mega Drive brand with Sonic and wanted to keep its IP synonymous with its own machine.
lordofchaos is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 21:05   #87
Radertified
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: -
Posts: 53
Speaking of Sonic for the Amiga, it was once in development by US Gold! http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the...og_%28Amiga%29

That's a version I'd love to see tracked down by AGTW, but I very much doubt that there'd be any remains anywhere.
Radertified is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 21:32   #88
Mrs Beanbag
Glastonbridge Software
Mrs Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Edinburgh/Scotland
Posts: 2,202
it also probably wasn't very good, although the Master System version would certainly have been do-able (and was the best version according to some people).

A pretty accurate version of Megadrive Sonic is possible on stock A1200, i'm convinced, but not A500 without some trade-offs somewhere, most probably in terms of parallax effects, but tricks could still be pulled.
Mrs Beanbag is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 21:47   #89
Amigajay
醉拳
Amigajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: N/A
Posts: 1,335
I think than rather start from scratch its probably easier to poke around and change sprites and sounds from Kid Chaos, its the closest Sonic game the Amiga had, still amazes me it was on the A500.
Amigajay is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 21:57   #90
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 17,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radertified View Post
Speaking of Sonic for the Amiga, it was once in development by US Gold! http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the...og_%28Amiga%29

That's a version I'd love to see tracked down by AGTW, but I very much doubt that there'd be any remains anywhere.
That looks like a shitty mockup fake screenshot.
This game was never, ever developed, despite many magazines hinting that it was.
Akira is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 22:08   #91
lordofchaos
TinkerTailorContentMaker

lordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 39
Posts: 1,002
Oh dear god, I just read my last comment.. on reflection I may have been talking crap lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
it also probably wasn't very good, although the Master System version would certainly have been do-able (and was the best version according to some people).

A pretty accurate version of Megadrive Sonic is possible on stock A1200, i'm convinced, but not A500 without some trade-offs somewhere, most probably in terms of parallax effects, but tricks could still be pulled.
You did a pretty impressive job with Mr Beanbag, ever been tempted to do a cheeky sonic conversion Or perhaps just a single working stage?
lordofchaos is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 22:24   #92
s2325
Zone Friend

s2325's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Gargore
Age: 37
Posts: 17,536
2 screenshots mixed:

s2325 is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 22:31   #93
Galahad/FLT
Going nowhere

Galahad/FLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44
Posts: 6,503
The fact US Gold were involved was never a good sign, thankfully Sega cancelled all the licences and decided to make Sonic their mascot.
Galahad/FLT is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 23:32   #94
Mrs Beanbag
Glastonbridge Software
Mrs Beanbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Edinburgh/Scotland
Posts: 2,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofchaos View Post
You did a pretty impressive job with Mr Beanbag, ever been tempted to do a cheeky sonic conversion Or perhaps just a single working stage?
i did actually make a Green Hill Zone using the Mr Beanbag engine, it might be worth pursuing, it's funny to look at if nothing else. I converted the sprites as well, hmm, i wonder if i've got them on my PC i'll just have a look...

EDIT yes i found them
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	greenhill-tiles.png
Views:	238
Size:	8.9 KB
ID:	46635   Click image for larger version

Name:	greenhill-sprites.png
Views:	216
Size:	6.1 KB
ID:	46636  

Last edited by Mrs Beanbag; 16 December 2015 at 23:43.
Mrs Beanbag is offline  
Old 16 December 2015, 23:47   #95
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 17,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
EDIT yes i found them

Yes I want that.
Soneek the Beanbag
Akira is offline  
Old 17 December 2015, 04:21   #96
ReadOnlyCat
Code Kitten

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Montreal/Canadia
Age: 46
Posts: 1,002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
The fact US Gold were involved was never a good sign, thankfully Sega cancelled all the licences and decided to make Sonic their mascot.
I'm with this kitten!

Just thinking this might have happened sends cold shivers down my spine. There would have been no better way to hasten the demise of the Amiga than such an horror. The worst of all being that US Gold would very likely have made money for such a crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
i did actually make a Green Hill Zone using the Mr Beanbag engine, it might be worth pursuing, it's funny to look at if nothing else. I converted the sprites as well, hmm, i wonder if i've got them on my PC i'll just have a look...

EDIT yes i found them
Nice! But what a tease you are.
How loudly do I need to purr for you to post a video of it in action on Youtube?

With this, let me resurrect a few old posts from this thread which deserve a clear answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-J View Post
My personal interest in this is to know if a 1:1 conversion was possible (assuming factors such as access to the original source, artwork and so on). So are there technical features in the Megadrive game that the seasoned coders (Galahad, StingRay et al.) could quantifiably say would not be possible, or are at least highly unlikely? And additionally, whether an AGA equipped Amiga could do it.
This is a most excellently formulated question the answer to which is: extremely unlikely to be possible on OCS (as Lady Beanbag said). If you do not want 1:1, then as Galahad said, yup, there is not a shred of doubt that a very good conversion is possible, with a downgrade.
Get rid of the parallax and the rest is easy, or keep it and sacrifice a few other things (bob colors, etc.).

AGA: again, Lady Beanbag hinted this was potentially possible and a version could get pretty close but a MegaDrive is quite powerful so it is hard to be certain.

Remember that a MegaDrive can output 320 pixels of 16 colour non repeating sprites per scanline without CPU intervention or DMA cost. Its dual playfield mode has double the colours than that of the Amiga and also comes for free without any DMA penalties. Really good games can even exhaust the sprite list mid screen and send a new one via DMA in order to draw even more sprites on screen (a-la copper). A game that really exploits well the hardware is simply impossible to convert 1:1 on OCS, and possibly doable but hard on AGA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-J View Post
To further add to that-- I worked out that Sonic on the Master System is at it's maximum pushing 8px/frame (at 256 wide) and that seems pretty bloody fast once it's happening in front of you.
Yes, no need to modify many pixels per frame to have fast scrolling.
One only needs to scroll 320 / 50 = 6.4 pixels per frame to scroll an entire screen per second.

Sonic's maximum scrolling speed is very comfortably within the Amiga limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-J View Post
Ladies, please. Let's get back to the real issue which is why you're not teaming together to make a 1:1 port of Sonic as we speak.

While you watch?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofchaos View Post
I still think a perfect conversion of sonic would and could have been possible on the Amiga but it would have been highly unlikely, we know the evidence is there, just look at the games/demos that stick a middle finger up to it`s own hardware limitations..
That a few games exhibit _some_ but not all of the features of Sonic, does not prove that it is possible to have a conversion which integrates them all. The killer is precisely to have them all together, that is where the hardware of the Amiga is not sufficient.

To your knowledge, can the Amiga OCS do all of the following at the same time?
63 colours per scanline.
15 colours per playfield per scanline.
32 colours per scanline for sprites.
320 pixels of non repeating 16 colour sprites per scanline.
CPU has full access to RAM without penalties.

Because the MD can. And Sonic makes a quite good use of these.
(The answer is "no" btw.)

I think that one or two levels of Sonic can be done very close to 1:1 with some very clever (and difficult) tricks but the others require a downscale. They will still look nice, but they won't be 1:1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofchaos View Post
The coding talent pool did exist to pull it off but was spread over too many different developers and demo sceners, it would have taken a massive effort to bring them all together and work on the game.
You really underestimate how capable the MD hardware is compared to the OCS chipset. No matter the talent pool, when a level requires more than 32 colours per scanline on screen with dual playfield parallax and massive number of moving objects, then the OCS Amiga just cannot do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofchaos View Post
Coders have been and will continue to defy the limit that is set out in front of them. The real trouble was down to publishers and lack of real interest to develop the game on the Amiga, at the time Sega was really pushing the Mega Drive brand with Sonic and wanted to keep its IP synonymous with its own machine.
Coders did defy conventional limits (because the real limits, well, no one knows what they are, by definition) but there still are some pretty solid limits which cannot be overcome whatever the trick.

Number of colours per scanline? That's 32 or 16 maximum if you want to be able to move a lot of objects. If you want EHB's 64 you must forget moving lots of objects because each bitplane reduces the blitter speed. And if you want full screen parallax you have maximum 15 colours per scanline and the same number of bitplanes and limitations than EHB.

Great and technically impressive games on the Amiga were made because they were very carefully tailored to these limitations and CodeTapper's site does a fantastic job of explaining that. All the technically great Amiga games sacrifice a few things in order to play to the Amiga strengths.

Sonic 1:1, generally does not allow these sacrifices, it wants everything at the same time: colours per scanline, full screen parallax and many objects. In some levels (the first notably and maybe the second), there might be ways to play to the Amiga strengths by exploiting the level structure and colour scheme but the rest of the game requires drastic adaptations.

Last edited by ReadOnlyCat; 17 December 2015 at 04:26.
ReadOnlyCat is offline  
Old 17 December 2015, 12:01   #97
lordofchaos
TinkerTailorContentMaker

lordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 39
Posts: 1,002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag View Post
i did actually make a Green Hill Zone using the Mr Beanbag engine, it might be worth pursuing, it's funny to look at if nothing else. I converted the sprites as well, hmm, i wonder if i've got them on my PC i'll just have a look...

EDIT yes i found them
Cool! Those sprite conversions look very impressive. I can almost see it running in my mind, would need a very cool conversion of the iconic music too, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat View Post
You really underestimate how capable the MD hardware is compared to the OCS chipset. No matter the talent pool, when a level requires more than 32 colours per scanline on screen with dual playfield parallax and massive number of moving objects, then the OCS Amiga just cannot do it.
Yeah I`m with you, knowing what I know now and having let go of my inner fanboy.. being realistic with the hardware, could get a decent conversion at best, but a 1:1 copy.. I must have been out of my mind

I blame those damn coders that made Elf Mania, clearly a superior alien race, sent to earth on a mission to push the Amiga past it's limits.
lordofchaos is offline  
Old 17 December 2015, 12:05   #98
Retro1234
5150

Retro1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sycophantazia
Posts: 3,702
1 on 1 graphicly or gameplay wise
I had a go with Exl's excellent superfrog editor
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=38016&page=3
Retro1234 is offline  
Old 17 December 2015, 13:34   #99
lordofchaos
TinkerTailorContentMaker

lordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 39
Posts: 1,002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo Boo View Post
1 on 1 graphicly or gameplay wise
I had a go with Exl's excellent superfrog editor
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=38016&page=3
Nice job

If an unofficial version ever gets made may I suggest the title "Cronic The Groundhog!"

Last edited by lordofchaos; 17 December 2015 at 13:39.
lordofchaos is offline  
Old 17 December 2015, 13:40   #100
Amigajay
醉拳
Amigajay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: N/A
Posts: 1,335
Good job Boo Boo! Did anything come of your little Sonic project? Is there a Iso you could upload to test?
Amigajay is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
another amiga game that wasn't pubblished :D Raislin77it project.aGTW 49 21 March 2013 22:35
Sonic for the Amiga yadster project.aGTW 81 29 December 2012 02:47
Sonic The Hedgehog - Amiga raindancerob Retrogaming General Discussion 69 25 August 2009 23:10
Amiga Sonic screenshots/mockups, any more info? (NOT Sonic Attack/DCS) LocalH project.aGTW 2 09 October 2008 04:58
Sonic the Hedgehog for Amiga? s2325 request.Old Rare Games 75 20 June 2008 20:50

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.25237 seconds with 12 queries