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Old 26 January 2012, 02:25   #21
Leandro Jardim
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I dont want to go against P-J or anyone, but lets the debate flow as a conversation should be. This time only lets go against the rules. After all, we use an Amiga/WinUAE/WinFellow or not?

[EDIT. Blah, sorry P-J, I said really bullshit. ]

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Old 26 January 2012, 02:32   #22
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No conversion will ever be 100% 1:1 faithful unless it's a very old game, but that doesn't matter.

Plenty of Amiga conversions play as good/better than the original (Silkworm = brighter colours, smaller helicopter, Pang = awesome music and slick graphics) despite being cut down to the Amiga.

KevG: That's a nice colour palette for dual playfield OCS/ECS - will you be able to include other enemies and objects into that limited 7 colour palette for the foreground though? 288 pixel width is a little small too!

Last edited by Codetapper; 26 January 2012 at 04:24.
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Old 26 January 2012, 08:28   #23
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Originally Posted by Codetapper View Post
288 pixel width is a little small too!
That's just 16 pixels less than Turrican II (304x216) and 32 pixels more than most SNES games.
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Old 26 January 2012, 08:45   #24
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Originally Posted by gibs View Post
Of course an Amiga can do it !!!
If we had zool2, why can't it be possible?
It's just that it was for the sea platform as gear of wars is for the xbox360 and not the ps3.
You know what I mean.
hey gibs, are you talking about ZOOL 2 Aga? If then yes, it was eye candy with those detailed backgrounds. While on ECS it was just gradient fills.
Still better than original Zool for Amiga:



and this is Mega Drive's rendition:



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Old 26 January 2012, 12:12   #25
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Originally Posted by P-J View Post
I don't know what this debate is about any more. You've got one guy talking about a 1:1 conversion, and others talking about converting lesser version. It's either one or the other. Obviously the game is feasible if you strip it back, but I don't think that's what the OP is alluding to.
The hardware is different, so your never going to get the exact same game.
The Amiga version would probably have more colours on screen using copper effects (sky's, hud, water at the bottom etc) -but not so much for sprites/tiles. I expect an Amiga version would start off in 4 or 5 bitplanes, and add palette changes from there.

And the music could be improved with digital audio, and sampled speech.
Loading screens could be HAM/interlaced.

As already mentioned, it would depend on the team you had doing it. In the right hands, an OCS game can have hundreds of colours on screen.

There's nothing revolutionary about sonic, other than it runs in a frame. Getting the Amiga to do that with plenty of colours would be the challenge.

Last edited by khph_re; 26 January 2012 at 12:18.
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Old 26 January 2012, 13:11   #26
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I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that the Mr. Nutz team approached Ocean with a conversion of Sonic, but for various reasons (licensing, for one!) they were asked to make changes, and the Amiga Mr. Nutz was born.

I don't know how much truth's in this, though.
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Old 26 January 2012, 13:23   #27
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What I meant by my earlier comment is that these discussions (and there are many, in fact there was an almost exact same discussion only a couple weeks ago!) never have a technical resolution, which is what I'd like to see from this thread

My personal interest in this is to know if a 1:1 conversion was possible (assuming factors such as access to the original source, artwork and so on). So are there technical features in the Megadrive game that the seasoned coders (Galahad, StingRay et al.) could quantifiably say would not be possible, or are at least highly unlikely? And additionally, whether an AGA equipped Amiga could do it.

Seems like the question of why it didn't happen as opposed to this question of why it couldn't happen has already been answered.

Last edited by P-J; 26 January 2012 at 13:28.
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Old 26 January 2012, 13:30   #28
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Jay Miner wanted it to be a computer, we can see a video where an Amiga team member RJ IIRC saying are you sure it's a console why this and that port for then...

Kamel

PS in the History of the Commodore Amiga (check Youtube)

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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Incorrect, the Amiga was originally designed as a console, it was only Commodores intervention that it be turned into a fully fledged computer to replace the C64 that changed things.

The Amiga could have been capable of doing something akin to Sonic, but unfortunately, it wouldn't have gone to the right people to be converted.

As Codetapper said, originally Sega were going to licence Sonic when it first came out, it was only after some thought that they opted to withdraw the licence because they wanted to compete with Nintendo who had their own series, i.e. Mario which was platform specific.

If US Gold had converted Sonic, it frankly would have done more harm than good to the Amiga, in fact if it had been converted by US Gold or any of its usual stables of development teams (Aka showers of shit!), it quite possibly could have done the Amiga massive harm.

Streetfighter 2 was bad enough, but that was late enough in the Amigas lifespan that it didn't really matter, but if Sonic had been released on Amiga in 1990 near the time of the Megadrive version, it would have been very bad for Amiga.

Neo were not established at that point, Team 17 were not established enough at that point, Factor 5 might have been capable of taking on the job and turning out a decent version, maybe at a stretch some of the guys in Thalion, but really, if Sonic was to have been done, it would have been better released later in its life as there was then plenty of programmers out there that were very capable of squeezing the best out of the Amiga.

Last edited by kamelito; 26 January 2012 at 13:31. Reason: more info
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Old 26 January 2012, 13:56   #29
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Its the same deal as ID Software attempted with Mario. They actually created a "proof of concept" of Mario on the PC with a fully playable smooth scrolling first level. Nintendo didn't want to release a Mario for the PC, so it ended up becoming Commander Keen in stead.

(Source: Masters of Doom)
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Old 26 January 2012, 14:21   #30
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Originally Posted by P-J View Post
What I meant by my earlier comment is that these discussions (and there are many, in fact there was an almost exact same discussion only a couple weeks ago!) never have a technical resolution, which is what I'd like to see from this thread

My personal interest in this is to know if a 1:1 conversion was possible (assuming factors such as access to the original source, artwork and so on). So are there technical features in the Megadrive game that the seasoned coders (Galahad, StingRay et al.) could quantifiably say would not be possible, or are at least highly unlikely? And additionally, whether an AGA equipped Amiga could do it.

Seems like the question of why it didn't happen as opposed to this question of why it couldn't happen has already been answered.
It won't be 1:1, the hardware is not the same. It'll gain in some, lose in others.

AGA could do it no problem, it has enough grunt to push 6 bitplanes without any copper tricks, higher sprite bandwidth, and can chuck around more bobs. I don't doubt it could produce a game better looking than sonic
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Old 26 January 2012, 14:51   #31
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With AGA a 1:1 conversion is almost possible, but not quite. Maybe you could get a 99:100 conversion! I'm working on this myself...

Sonic's background graphics is 16 colours, foreground is also 16 colours, sprites however use a different palette and the amiga is limited to four 16 colour sprites, or three if you want to do full-screen scrolling (because setting DDFSTRT early interferes with the sprite DMA so you lose sprite 7 - but you can still use sprite 6 in 3 colours only).

AGA can handle 64 pixel wide sprites however, so Sonic only needs to take up one of them (that is one 16 colour sprite), and it could be possible to multiplex them (the same sprite can be reused in several places on the screen if you are cunning) but objects that are too common, such as rings, will have to be drawn directly to the background. Note also that on Sonic some static background objects are actually sprites as well (for instance the purple rocks). Also the HUD at top left would also need to be made out of (3 colour) sprites.

50fps is easily achievable with all the parallax graphics exactly the same as Sonic, the only degradation you might have to put up with is a reduction in colours to allow some things to be drawn as bobs.

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AGA could do it no problem, it has enough grunt to push 6 bitplanes without any copper tricks ... and can chuck around more bobs.
I'm not aware of AGA having a faster blitter than ECS - do correct me if I'm wrong. What is true though is that with 32 bit or 64 bit graphics DMA fetching there is more chip ram bandwidth available to it.
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Old 26 January 2012, 15:34   #32
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I got to say KevG demo was very good especially considering the OCS limitations and I dont think the average joe would notice 288 or even less - I think he did a SOTB demo also.

Im sure if anyone could do it Mrs Beanbag you could.

As for the tunnel picture above you could have the tunnels pre rendered like MegaRace, Microcosm.

anyways anyone whos gonna have a go good luck.

Last edited by Retro1234; 26 January 2012 at 15:41.
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Old 26 January 2012, 16:52   #33
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Jay Miner wanted it to be a computer, we can see a video where an Amiga team member RJ IIRC saying are you sure it's a console why this and that port for then...
That was my understanding he wanted it to be a computer but the money was in the consoles so he started work on a console that could be upgraded to a computer, then the consoles went tits up and it became what we love.
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Old 26 January 2012, 16:58   #34
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As for the tunnel picture above you could have the tunnels pre rendered like MegaRace, Microcosm.
The tunnel is from Sonic 2! This is cheating, we have to make Sonic 1 first. Sonic 1 had a spinny special stage, which I think I would do with vectors for the walls rather than bobs/sprites. The Amiga beats the Megadrive in that capacity, we can fill polygons with the blitter! Which means it could rotate smoother, Sonic has to store each rotation angle for the square bricks but we can rotate by any angle if we use filled polygons (plus copper effects to make the shading nicer).

The Sonic 2 special stage could probably be done with vectors too, not sure how it's done on the Megadrive though, they probably cheat somehow. Looking at the video I'm sure they are already doing it the same way as Microcosm. So I think we can best that too with proper rendering.
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Old 26 January 2012, 17:53   #35
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I know its cheating pre rendered has crossed my mind a bit lately maybe even for some kind of parallax on OCS but thats another story
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Old 26 January 2012, 19:46   #36
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Even if KevG conversion is 99/100 he would have proved that it's possible because from all conversion we had in the past, none of them had this level...

Also...the title thread doesn't mention OCS/AGA.

The Megadrive was released in 1988 in japan and 1990 in europe while the OCS was released in 1985 !!!!
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Old 26 January 2012, 20:16   #37
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and Sonic was released in June 1991, AGA in October 1992.

To prove that "Sonic was possible on the Amiga" I'd say you'd only really need it to be about 90:100. Conversions typically aren't identical, as you point out... we have to think about what "Sonic" really means. What it means is a fast platform game with smooth scrolling, curved platforms and loops. Is that possible on the Amiga? Yes, plain and simple. The graphics and sound are mere implementational details that of course vary with the hardware. Sonic existed on the Master System too afterall, with cut down graphics, and that version didn't even have loops. The loops were really what made it special for me, though, no game had that kind of physics before.

We haven't even mentioned the sound yet, in fact. There's been plenty of talk about the graphics. The sound will have to be different. The Megadrive had an FM synth with 6 channels, in addition to the Master System's old sound chip. The Amiga only has four sound channels which makes it more difficult to do intricate music and sound effects at the same time, but because it plays samples the sound effects can be more realistic (if you have space enough to store them) and if you're clever you can pre-mix samples together and make chords and things to give your music a fuller sound. Sonic's music however wasn't composed around these limitations, so it will have to sound different. Unless you just want to sample the whole thing...
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Old 26 January 2012, 20:46   #38
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we have to think about what "Sonic" really means.
Exactly!
Taking the essence of the game is what will make a good conversion. This is what I mean when I say any game can be converted. I always put the NeoGeo Pocket versions of Neo Geo games as good examples of major cosmetic compromise while delivering full 1:1 gameplay essence, resulting in a great game/port.

Quote:
What it means is a fast platform game with smooth scrolling, curved platforms and loops. Is that possible on the Amiga? Yes, plain and simple.
Yes! I don't care about how many parallax planes are there really, these things you mention are the key to Sonic, as well as two more important things: level design and the character of Sonic and all the enemies, or you could just say for that, art direction

Quote:
We haven't even mentioned the sound yet, in fact. There's been plenty of talk about the graphics. The sound will have to be different.
I think a compromise can be made here of course. I really like, for example, Street Fighter 2's music. I think it was well done given the limitations!
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Old 26 January 2012, 21:41   #39
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sonic never was done for the amiga because Sega wants to be exclusive in their consoles

I'm a fan of platform games but I never liked sonic series
they are bored to play

on the other way yes it was possible to do it on AGA featuring even better graphics than megadrive version.....
watch the speed of games like brian the lion AGA or zool 2 AGA with all those gfx behind and full of colors
also watch james pond 3 AGA version and watch how fast it

anyways I think that sonic was not possible in the A500+ 1mb
at least with the quality graphics and number of colors of the megadrive version
but yes it was possible on AGA because there is more memory,because chips and cpu are fast and because more colors
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Old 26 January 2012, 21:50   #40
kamelito
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Sonic disassemblies :
http://info.sonicretro.org/Disassemblies
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