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Old 29 March 2011, 18:12   #1
khph_re
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would this be possible?

So I was looking for a new job, and discovered this company called 'lucky mountain games'. Looking at the screen shot of their most recent title 'racing apex' I wondered if this would be possible on 030 based AGA machines using c2p technique similar to lord Ritons HAM8 one. I often wondered if expanding on what the A500 could do would have been better than trying to texture map everything. Obviously the game contains gourard shading, which would probably have to go (I don't know how hard that is to calculate).

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Old 29 March 2011, 18:37   #2
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Looking at the screenshots, the game does not use so many colors that it would be necessary to use HAM. It would probably be faster to use a 3D engine similar to that used in Frontier Elite II. Should run quite fast on a 030.
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Old 29 March 2011, 18:43   #3
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I frontier has some great 3D, but a bit lacking in the 'trouser department' when it came to colour (think it was 16 colour, with a seperate 16 colour command panel). Still, at least managed to avoid dithered shades. I remember Braben saying it had a dynamic palette.

What about Gourard shading thomas? how processor intensive is that to calculate? (more or less than texture mapping would you say?)
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Old 30 March 2011, 03:27   #4
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Don't think Ham8 would really be needed there. This game seems like [ Show youtube player ]

The game uses no textures, so there is not even the need of a C2p routine. It's the kind of games that existed a lot on the amiga, with Blitter drawn polygons. The blitter is just not fast enough to render enough polygons to make a game that looks as good as these from your picture.
Maybe if combining the blitter with the processor itself, especially if it's a 060, we could get a lot more polygons drawn from that couple, but i'm pretty sure that has already be done by someone and the result probably was not so great, or we would know about more such games
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Old 30 March 2011, 19:38   #5
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I think people were to busy writing doom engines to try chucking plain or vertex shaded polys round a track
This sort of game was out of fashion back then, Amigans were feeling their insecurity and trying to catch up with the PC. Of course, now the retro look is cool again

You'd need c2p if you wanted lots of colours your right, if it was plain shaded, you could probably go 8bit (or less). But if you have vertex colours, you'd need more for the blend. A lot of PS1 games i worked on used vertex colours on a 16bit screen. They looked ok (bit banded, but you can't have everything!)

You could probably use blitter polys for the cockpit, and processor/fpu for the rest.

Of course it will not look as good as this. 320x256 for starters, and less detail. But something like this, for sure.
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Old 30 March 2011, 20:29   #6
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In that genre, and on PS1, there was [ Show youtube player ] , a fantastic fighting/combat game i really loved to play especially the dungeon quests part !

This would be so great if they would do a remake of tobal 1 on xbox360
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Old 30 March 2011, 21:16   #7
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Tobal was really unusual. I'm playing through Vagrant story and GPolice at the moment. Some great texture and modeling in those games
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Old 30 March 2011, 21:55   #8
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It would be not possible because apparently that game uses more polygons than any PSX game and the resolution is too high.Amiga version would be very different,a kind of Leading Lap game or a little better
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Old 31 March 2011, 00:19   #9
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@frikilokooo
did you read my post: "Of course it will not look as good as this. 320x256 for starters, and less detail. But something like this, for sure."

as for looking like "leading lap" we are talking about fast 030 and 040 processors, often with a maths unit, and 8-16 times faster than the A1200, with 4 to 8 times the ram at least. Unless the coders and artists were shite, how could it end up like leading lap?
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Old 31 March 2011, 01:00   #10
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Leading Lap exploits good the cpu 030 and probably programmed on assembler,I think you're exaggerating.We are talking about a racing game,it requires a high framerate,believe me that is would the result.

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Old 01 April 2011, 00:13   #11
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I'm not sure I agree. It does not use any kind of c2p routine, and so is hobbled in speed and colours by AGA. Check out all the games/demo scene productions that use those techniques to speed up 3D and add extra colour into the bargain. It was designed to run on a plain A1200, it does not scale that well in terms of detail or effects on high end processors. It makes no use of an FPU at all. Also, it may have been coded in ASM, but it was Paul Stapley's first 3D game. A good effort, mind you.

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Old 01 April 2011, 16:36   #12
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its not the 030 or 040 or 060 that holds back Amiga 3D games, it is AGA.
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Old 01 April 2011, 16:56   #13
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Like DDNI says it's AGA, and more specifically the dead slow chip memory. Even the "fast" RAM on the accelerator boards is so slow that the CPU often has to sit and wait several clock cycles between memory accesses. You will never see a game like that on the classic Amigas even if it was reduced to flat-shaded polygons and 320x200 resolution.
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Old 01 April 2011, 17:22   #14
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True within reason. However, it's easily fast enough to run texture mapped 3D games, we have plenty. which are over an order of magnitude slower to render, and consume far more ram, and have to transfer a lot more data than a plain rendered poly game would. If it can do that, it can do a plain shaded racer with a lot more poly's. Plain vertex data is actually very small, especially compared to vertex lit or texture mapped data.

Try to get away from something that looks exactly like that screenshot. Think of it more as inspiration (it's what inspired me, but perhaps I was wrong to post it). Imagine F1GP if you like, with quadruple the polys, and more colours. I think a fast 030 could do that. An 030 with FPU or 040 could do yet more. Using a LOD system would help, as would a decent backface cull algorithm. You can also use blitter line drawing and fill abilites, though that might introduce sorting issues (you could use it for the 3d cockpit- like coala has). If you keep the game on a flat plane, you could use the copper to generate palette lists for the sky, and perhaps the ground (Trex warior and guardian are good examples of this).

If you have more technical info you would like to bring up, please do. While not a coder, iv'e worked on 3D games for the past 14 years from the PS1, DS to PS3, and I can understand where you are coming from, if not any code you post

Last edited by khph_re; 01 April 2011 at 17:45.
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