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Old 06 March 2011, 19:14   #21
Lord Riton
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Originally Posted by gilgamesh View Post
You want to discuss only if everyone shares your opinion? Oh dear
I know your opinion, you know mine, what is there to discuss ? you won't make me change my point of view, and am to tired to try to change yours, while i don't care that much anyway.
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Old 06 March 2011, 19:31   #22
gilgamesh
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Alright then. I think I see a flaw in your logic. You asked for an example, you got one. That's all.

I don't think there's much point in piracy anyway. You can buy the very few games that would be worth the trouble these days.
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Old 06 March 2011, 20:06   #23
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Ok you want me to bring your exemple in consideration, fine.


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Originally Posted by gilgamesh View Post
I'm not so sure. While it is very unlikely for one single game, it can surely help raise the public attention for a certain franchise or company. (E.g. Larry 1 was heavily pirated, but that didn't hurt Sierra one bit imho.)
Of course it did hurt them, every game that gets pirated does hurt a company. It just didn't hurt them that much because the game was a good and well known (well rated from press, etc) game. So they still sold enough of it.
To say that pirated games do not hurt a company just because it doesn't hurt them "to much" is just wrong.


Now i'm up to dinner, cya ! (hope not in that thread)
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Old 06 March 2011, 21:54   #24
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Thats just some wish thinking. Piracy will NEVER help to sell more games, NEVER !
Really, not everyone agrees there:
http://www.rieti.go.jp/en/publicatio.../11010021.html
Now, that's not games, it's Anime, but I believe the concept holds.

I know there were games I bought because I saw/played pirated copies.
Not that I am saying "Piracy is all good." I'm not..

Piracy can result in greater recognition/distribution, which can generate more sales.
There is a percent of people who will pirate and not ever buy, but some of them wouldn't have bought anyway.

Is the amount of "true lost sales" (I pirated this, so I don't need to buy it and I would have) greater or less than the number of people who bought it after seeing it? I don't know. There are studies that show both sides.

That said, "Piracy didn't kill the Amiga."
Yes, there was a lot of piracy on the Amiga.
And the C64.
And the Ataris.
And the PCs.
And even the Macs. I was on a "Mac" ruled campus in the late 80's / early 90's and there was a lot of piracy there too....

What killed the Amiga was what saved the Amiga.

Commodore.

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Old 06 March 2011, 21:59   #25
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Ok you want me to bring your exemple in consideration, fine.
No, I just practice to get better at touch typing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Riton View Post
To say that pirated games do not hurt a company just because it doesn't hurt them "to much" is just wrong.
I never said so. What I say is that while a company misses some profit in the short run, it still may pay in the long run.

Quote:
Larry sold poorly, moving just 4,000 copies in its first month. But word of mouth spread quickly, and it became the third best-selling computer game in America in July 1988, just over a year after its initial release. Millions of pirated copies were played around the world, too. In one RetroGamer interview, Lowe remarked that a Russian computer consultant had told him Larry was so widespread in Russia that it seemed like it was a part of DOS.
link
I think it is safe to assume (prove me wrong, if you like) that "word of mouth" and "pirated copies" go hand in hand here. It was one big advertising campaign. Sierra hired more employees and made five sequels.

Quote:
The game was heavily copied, because Sierra claims they sold more hint books for this title than actual games.
link
So even the pirated copies generated revenue. Hint books were a very important factor back in the day when there was no internet.

I think all this is in a broad sense on topic of this thread (what piracy meant for the Amiga). If you care, great. If you don't, that's fine with me too.

Last edited by gilgamesh; 06 March 2011 at 23:19. Reason: typo
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Old 06 March 2011, 22:00   #26
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Of course it did hurt them, every game that gets pirated does hurt a company. It just didn't hurt them that much because the game was a good and well known (well rated from press, etc) game. So they still sold enough of it.
To say that pirated games do not hurt a company just because it doesn't hurt them "to much" is just wrong.
You're still assuming that any act of piracy is automatically a lost sale, unless it becomes possible to view parallel universes where a particular act of piracy never occured, it's all just speculation as to whether the person would later go on to buy it or not.

I've listed above some situations where piracy can actually help to increase sales.
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Old 06 March 2011, 23:07   #27
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Lots of talk about piracy here, but not the Amiga. I personally wouldn’t compare the Amiga to today’s games that closely. Even the stinkiest games today are playable and kinda enjoyable (I know I’m gonna get a lot of flak for that). What I mean is, I think all this whining about EA, while having an element of truth, is slightly unjustified.

The difference being this:
Take, I don’t know, Turning Point Fall of Liberty on the PC (a below average game by any standards). If I brought that I would have been pissed mainly because of the price of it, but I would have still played it through. In other words it was technically competent but an utterly bland FPS.

Then take a time where I brought the price equivalent in the Amiga days. My main real life example is Alien storm by US GOLD costing me 25. I felt so disappointed when I loaded it up. The jerky scrolling, the music which sounded like it was written by a two-year old. The horrid ST palette graphics... I could go on. I felt like I had not only been scammed, but mugged for my hard earned cash! It wasn’t competent, it wasn’t fun in the slightest, and it felt utterly unfinished.

(Alien storm is not the worst Amiga game either by a long shot, there are some, like bionic commando that are nearly unplayable!)

At the end of the day, I thought companies like US Gold and Tiertex deserved to have their games pirated (HA HA, I’m evil!)
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Old 06 March 2011, 23:16   #28
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I think it's not so much about if games should be pirated, but about if pirating games can bring a platform (computer or console) down. Hope I made it clear that I think it's pants to claim pirating was the main problem in the end for the Amiga.
Sorry to repeat myself, but I thought I make that bit a tad clearer
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Old 06 March 2011, 23:27   #29
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Another theory: Piracy made Amiga flourish.
There were lots of people who had (I don't say owned ) games, that attracted more potential buyers, the platform became popular.

We probably missed some conversions to the Amiga due to piracy, but only after the decline of the platform became obvious.

(It may sound like I endorse piracy which I don't. I'm just playing devil's advocate.)
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:03   #30
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Originally Posted by gilgamesh View Post
Another theory: Piracy made Amiga flourish.
There were lots of people who had (I don't say owned ) games, that attracted more potential buyers, the platform became popular.

We probably missed some conversions to the Amiga due to piracy, but only after the decline of the platform became obvious.

(It may sound like I endorse piracy which I don't. I'm just playing devil's advocate.)
Ocean Software were of the same opinion. They equated that so long as a machine was available to buy new, people invariably bought software to go with it, and at the rate the Amiga was selling, that was enough for some Software Companies to flourish.

Obviously as less Amigas are sold, so it goes that less original software is sold.

The Amiga was a special case with regard to piracy, which set the trend for future piracy on other machines, namely SPEED!

On the Atari ST scene, a game was cracked when it was cracked.

On the Amiga, several groups were competing to see who could release it the quickest, and then it got a little too organised with some groups having accounts at the actual distributors.... getting the games before even the shops did.

Thats possibly when it started getting a little out of hand!
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:14   #31
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The Amiga was a special case with regard to piracy, which set the trend for future piracy on other machines, namely SPEED!
Oh yeah baby
Sorry again, got a little carried away Anyway, good points there Galahad.
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:14   #32
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On the Amiga, several groups were competing to see who could release it the quickest, and then it got a little too organised with some groups having accounts at the actual distributors.... getting the games before even the shops did.

Thats decidedly when it started getting a little out of hand!
Fixed!
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:16   #33
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Piracy will ALWAYS harm the game industrie.

Here is a perfect article from a guy that thinks exactly like me, but his english is much better and he really knows about what he is talking:

http://www.bruceongames.com/2008/04/23/game-piracy/
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:18   #34
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"I'm Bruce Everiss, a veteran games industry marketer."

Hmm, would think that his opinion is a tad biased?

Have a look here : http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...ss-by-2012.ars
That is with all that oh-so-bad piracy around on every platform.
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:24   #35
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Damn TCD, you're fast!

And even he admits:
Quote:
And the game industry continues to grow and prosper, despite the piracy.
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:28   #36
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Damn TCD, you're fast!

And even he admits:
oh, so for you that means that piracy doesn't hurt the game industry ?

Sure if i cut off your left arm you will probably not die either.. so it does not hurt, right ?...
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:29   #37
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Damn TCD, you're fast!
Yep, slowly getting back in shape
Seriously though at those growth rates (which have almost been the same during the 90s) it's hard to keep up the claim that piracy hurts the game industry that much.

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oh, so for you that means that piracy doesn't hurt the game industry ?
You're saying that a ~10% increase in sales per year is 'hurting' the game industry? Really?
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:32   #38
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Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
"I'm Bruce Everiss, a veteran games industry marketer."

Hmm, would think that his opinion is a tad biased?
But he just tells the truth with facts, go read the whole article, and not just the part where it tells he comes from the game industry.

Edit: if piracy really wouldn't hurt the game industry, do you really think he would be against it then ? he would have no reasons to be against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
You're saying that a ~10% increase in sales per year is 'hurting' the game industry? Really?
No clue about what you are talking here sorry.

Last edited by Lord Riton; 07 March 2011 at 00:38. Reason: Back to back posts merged. Use multi-quote.
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:37   #39
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But he just tells the truth with facts, go read the whole article, and not just the part where it tells he comes from the game industry.
Right, facts... he tells his point of view which is obvious what it's based upon. Go and read up what other people said in this thread and you might realise that the 'truth' is a tad more complex than just saying that piracy harms the game industry. Isn't it a bit surprising that the sales increase if piracy really has the effect he decribes on game purchases?

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No clue about what you are talking here sorry.
Maybe you should click on my link then...
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Old 07 March 2011, 00:39   #40
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oh, so for you that means that piracy doesn't hurt the game industry ?
And again, I've never said so. I don't believe there is only black and white in this case. Many companies were bankrupted by piracy. To others it was beneficial.

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But he just tells the truth with facts, go read the whole article, and not just the part where it tells he comes from the game industry.
He is a marketing guy. It's his job to a) sell more units and b) discourage "pirates". We think in larger scales, while he thinks of day to day business.
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