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Old 20 September 2010, 02:20   #61
rare_j
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Nobody's said rick dangerous
I love that game!!
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Old 20 September 2010, 17:15   #62
Jgames
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Originally Posted by Raggot View Post
Who cares about the speed when it's so choppy?
Gods is slow scrolling, so it may be impossible to get a 50hz pixel by pixel scoll that is slow enough for the game.
When you scroll one pixel to right for example (slowest scroll), you have to scroll 50 pixels each frame to get a fluid scroll. if this shift of 50 pixels to the right per second is too fast, then you have to divide it by a value, most logical one is two, so you do 25 pixels shift to the right per second, so, one frame shift, one frame idle, one frame shifts, one frame idle, and so on, this way, you get 25fps shoppy scroll. It's like that, you can't do a slow scroll, that is 50fps.

The resolution is also important, for a 320 pixel width, if you do the one pixel scroll that is 50hz then you will turn the page (go from 0 to 319 pixels) in 320/50 in 6.4 seconds, if this 6.4 is two fast, then there is no issue than doing shoppy 25fps which will turn the page in 12 seconds or so.
A bigger resolution will give a great slow motion scoll, for example in 640 width, a slow scroll can take 640/50 = 12 seconds scroll a page from left to right.

This is what i think anyway, but would be happy to know more, from other coders.

Also, gods has a lot of action (sprite anims) on the screen, so maybe, even if say a smooth 50hz slow scroll was possible (which i doubt, explanation above) then the amount of objects on the screen would make that hard if not possible.

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Wait, you're seriously saying that not being choppy would make Gods WORSE? What?!
Yes, there are some games that benefited from bad technology to be great, like knigthmare on the msx, very choppy, very slow scroll, that allowed the game to be the great game that it is.
Also, metal gear on the msx2, if the msx2 had easy scroll in all direction like the nes, then metal gear would not even be created.

Smooth != fast. What the console ports did wrong does not negate what they did right.


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Originally Posted by Raggot View Post
Your point? Unless they're bad because of their scrolling (which would be a very stupid thing to say), that's irrelevant. They'd certainly be worse if they were choppy.
It depends on the game, some games can do with shoppiness, some can't.

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Nobody's said rick dangerous
I love that game!!
should be in any serious top ten, great game. (especially the II)
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Old 20 September 2010, 17:27   #63
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Not much mention of Zool 1 and/or 2, that was one of my favourite platformers. Robocod got most of my gaming time back in the day as well with all the cheats activated. So I would have to go with

1. Robocod
2. Zool
3-10 Used my Megadrive to play other platformers - 16bit systems were full of them from Alex Kidd through to Sonic.
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Old 20 September 2010, 18:31   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgames View Post
Gods is slow scrolling, so it may be impossible to get a 50hz pixel by pixel scoll that is slow enough for the game.
When you scroll one pixel to right for example (slowest scroll), you have to scroll 50 pixels each frame to get a fluid scroll. if this shift of 50 pixels to the right per second is too fast, then you have to divide it by a value, most logical one is two, so you do 25 pixels shift to the right per second, so, one frame shift, one frame idle, one frame shifts, one frame idle, and so on, this way, you get 25fps shoppy scroll. It's like that, you can't do a slow scroll, that is 50fps.
What? That would only be valid if Gods scrolled at half of a pixel per frame (which it doesn't), and even if it did, it wouldn't be choppy at all. Choppiness happens when you drop frames that would have been there.

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The resolution is also important, for a 320 pixel width, if you do the one pixel scroll that is 50hz then you will turn the page (go from 0 to 319 pixels) in 320/50 in 6.4 seconds, if this 6.4 is two fast, then there is no issue than doing shoppy 25fps which will turn the page in 12 seconds or so.
Resolution has absolutely nothing to do with this, and dropping frames doesn't affect scrolling speed. It only makes it choppier. You could "turn the page in 6.4 seconds" at one frame per second!

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Originally Posted by Jgames View Post
A bigger resolution will give a great slow motion scoll, for example in 640 width, a slow scroll can take 640/50 = 12 seconds scroll a page from left to right.
Higher resolution does make scrolling look smoother, but what does that have to do with this?

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This is what i think anyway, but would be happy to know more, from other coders.
You imply that you're a coder? Or that I'm one?

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Originally Posted by Jgames View Post
Also, gods has a lot of action (sprite anims) on the screen, so maybe, even if say a smooth 50hz slow scroll was possible (which i doubt, explanation above) then the amount of objects on the screen would make that hard if not possible.
Turrican II and Battle Squadron have far more objects, and they scroll just fine. Besides, Gods scrolls badly even when there's nothing on the screen. It's bad coding, plain and simple. And I like how you "doubt" that smooth, slow scrolling is "possible", when the Amiga has numerous games that do just that. Actually, scratch that, MOST games on almost EVERY system do that. That's why people can tell when a game DOESN'T.

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Originally Posted by Jgames View Post
Yes, there are some games that benefited from bad technology to be great, like knigthmare on the msx, very choppy, very slow scroll, that allowed the game to be the great game that it is.


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Also, metal gear on the msx2, if the msx2 had easy scroll in all direction like the nes, then metal gear would not even be created.


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It depends on the game, some games can do with shoppiness, some can't.
What's that even supposed to mean?

Last edited by Raggot; 20 September 2010 at 19:45.
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Old 20 September 2010, 18:42   #65
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It's easier to just disregard HOW the screen scrolls, and look at the apparent frame rate instead. 50 or 60 FPS is obviously excellent, and IMO 25 is playable but has a sluggish feel while 30 is fine, and I think everyone agrees that anything lower than that is too slow.
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Old 20 September 2010, 19:47   #66
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Originally Posted by BrooksterMax View Post
Not much mention of Zool 1 and/or 2, that was one of my favourite platformers.

I always thought of Zool being a more duller Sonic rip-off, the game that most amiga magazines hyped to use as a sort of childish statement "haha look sega what the amiga can do, no problem! - it's even faster (just don't mention the terrible graphics to make that possible)". It never came close to being as entertaining as Sonic either.

As some already said about Superfrog, I felt exactly the same. It's clearly a quality game with decent graphics and smooth scrolling but it was also dull and uninteresting. They just tried to follow Sonic's footsteps, the idea of Zool and Superfrog being the new Amiga flagships/mascottes always felt like an insult to an amiga game purist to me..
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Old 20 September 2010, 19:58   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggot View Post
What? That would only be valid if Gods scrolled at half of a pixel per frame (which it doesn't), and even if it did, it wouldn't be choppy at all. Choppiness happens when you drop frames that would have been there.
After thinking a bit about it, i agree with you on that one.
But to get a slow scroll on low resolution screen, it will give some kind of blurriness instead of choppiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggot View Post
Turrican II and Battle Squadron have far more objects, and they scroll just fine. Besides, Gods scrolls badly even when there's nothing on the screen. It's bad coding, plain and simple. And I like how you "doubt" that smooth, slow scrolling is "possible", when the Amiga has numerous games that do just that.
Taken a whole, Gods is a coding masterpiece, but i agree with you, maybe because it has St roots that the scroll is not that perfect.

About hardware limitation, it allowed to create some great games (metal gear is an example, i read Hideo Kojima saying that because the hardware was limited, it allowed him to design the game as it is known).
For example, look at PC now, so much power, you can do anything with it, while a good thing, it has mainly turned many games to fast boring action games.

Last edited by Jgames; 20 September 2010 at 20:09.
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Old 20 September 2010, 20:25   #68
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BWAHAHHAHHahahahha!!!!!

gods = coding master piece

LMFAOROTFLHOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no no no no no ---- so wrong!!!!


want to talk coding master piece - then we can talk "No Second Prize" or "Frontier Elite" ..... but not gods..... the only time this could be considered a "coding master piece" would be on the Atar ST - the one that doesn't have a blitter - or anything worth mentioning =D
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Old 20 September 2010, 20:27   #69
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BWAHAHHAHHahahahha!!!!!

gods = coding master piece

LMFAOROTFLHOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no no no no no ---- so wrong!!!!


want to talk coding master piece - then we can talk "No Second Prize" or "Frontier Elite" ..... but not gods..... the only time this could be considered a "coding master piece" would be on the Atar ST - the one that doesn't have a blitter - or anything worth mentioning =D
Lets get JOTD answer this one then, as he knows about the inners of the game more than anyone here.
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Old 20 September 2010, 21:52   #70
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I didnt realise we were looking for the most technically adanced platformer I thought game play counted.
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Old 20 September 2010, 23:46   #71
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Top 6 Personal Amiga Platform Games (in no particular order ):

1. Shadow of the Beast III - I just find it more fun to play, despite being shorter and less prettier than the first two games. At least the controls didn't suck.

2. Turrican II - Two words. BAD ASS.

3. Leander - Nice mix of action and a little bit of RPG elements in the game (AKA: buying your own equipment). Also loved the somewhat Western-Oriental art style the game had.

4. Lionheart - Enjoyed the hell outta this game. Great graphics and levels. Didn't like the fact that you had a small attack range, but it's a nitpick for the most part.

5. BC Kid - So what if it's a port of a TurboGrafx game? Still fun to play.

6. Flashback - I liked this more than Another World. Maybe because it wasn't so overly frustrating like that game was; but then that's my opinion.
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Old 21 September 2010, 00:03   #72
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Quote:
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They just tried to follow Sonic's footsteps, the idea of Zool and Superfrog being the new Amiga flagships/mascottes always felt like an insult to an amiga game purist to me..
Exactly, the last thing that I'd want for a system would be for it to be represented by a cheap cash-in on something that popularized another system. Which is exactly what those games were. Why couldn't people think of the Amiga as the brainier alternative to consoles with more in-depth platform games like Benefactor as opposed to Zero the Kamikaze Squirrel? I enjoy a silly jump-'n'-run game as much as the next guy, but I'd take Leander over one of those any day.

Although I don't think that anything on the Amiga can match Earthworm Jim as an action game, that one's pure perfection. It would have been neat to see some American console developers try their hand at the Amiga.

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After thinking a bit about it, i agree with you on that one.
But to get a slow scroll on low resolution screen, it will give some kind of blurriness instead of choppiness.
Not really. It's just slow. I speak as someone who has played numerous slow, smooth-scrolling games.

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Taken a whole, Gods is a coding masterpiece,


I guess that the enemies and automatic difficulty adjustment are pretty nifty, but almost everything else is worthless.

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but i agree with you, maybe because it has St roots that the scroll is not that perfect.
The Bitmap Brothers were some of the laziest developers around when it came to Amiga conversions; you got nicer sound samples and nothing else. But even Gods looks (and sounds) great next to Magic Pockets.

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About hardware limitation, it allowed to create some great games (metal gear is an example, i read Hideo Kojima saying that because the hardware was limited, it allowed him to design the game as it is known).
I see. The flick-screen design does give it a certain character that it would otherwise lack. But you'll see that that design was a workaround in the first place, he didn't try to do real scrolling because he knew that it wouldn't work, whereas Gods DOES use real scrolling, and it doesn't work, even though it should. Like I said, it's bad coding that works against the game's design, and there's no excuse for that.

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For example, look at PC now, so much power, you can do anything with it, while a good thing, it has mainly turned many games to fast boring action games.
You could say the same thing about movies, actually. Just compare the Star Wars prequels to the original trilogy. Or Avatar to Aliens, for that matter.
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Old 21 September 2010, 00:29   #73
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Gods DOES use real scrolling, and it doesn't work, even though it should.
Yet another stupid statement.

If it 'didn't work' as you put it, I, and many others, wouldn't have been able to play the game from start to completion, without any problems whatsoever.
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Old 21 September 2010, 00:35   #74
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I'd vote for renaming this thread to 'The Gods and Flashback discussion'. Who's with me?
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Old 21 September 2010, 00:39   #75
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@TCD

That's far too sensible! How about 'Cadaver is a platform game - who knew?'
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Old 21 September 2010, 00:43   #76
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You got the idea
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Old 21 September 2010, 00:43   #77
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If it 'didn't work' as you put it, I, and many others, wouldn't have been able to play the game from start to completion, without any problems whatsoever.
'Scuse me, it doesn't work well. If you compare it to other Amiga games it really is choppy, being able to ignore that (I envy you there) doesn't change it.
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Old 21 September 2010, 00:52   #78
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If I compare it to the likes of Superfrog or let's say Assassin, which both have slick scrolling, I'd choose Gods every single time. It's not that I 'ignore' the 'choppy' scrolling in Gods, (to ignore it, I would need to be aware of it in the first place) I simply do not see it.
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Old 21 September 2010, 01:29   #79
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If I compare it to the likes of Superfrog or let's say Assassin, which both have slick scrolling, I'd choose Gods every single time.
But you're judging the game as a whole then, so it's irrelevant to a discussion about its scrolling. I'd take Gods as well, given the choice.

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It's not that I 'ignore' the 'choppy' scrolling in Gods, (to ignore it, I would need to be aware of it in the first place) I simply do not see it.
Then you need to get your eyes checked, because it's definitely there.
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Old 21 September 2010, 02:45   #80
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Is there a difference in individual perception for God's scrolling?
(Well, obviously there is, but to what extent..)

Is it a PAL/NTSC thing?
Is it an emulator thing? (Is someone using an emulator for any of these comparisons?)
Does is run smoother on a 1200 than a 500??

I have to admit, when playing Gods, I've never noticed the scrolling being good or bad.
I'll fire it up again and have a look...

OK, just tried it.. And it is a bit choppy if I pay attention to it...

But when I'm playing, I don't notice it...

desiv

Last edited by desiv; 21 September 2010 at 03:11.
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