My A1200D Project

[Vairn]

wow, that is awesome.
That u can fit all that in the wedge is pretty darn sweet.

[phipscube]

@Retrofan, Yes, I took off the original fan and Heatsink, the old fan was redundant anyway. That hole now acts as a nice vent for the airflow coming from the top mounted fans.

[Retrofan]

I like your idea of the 1mm thick copper plate. In fact I'm waiting to receive a kit to repair an XBox from a friend and it consists in an aluminium plate over the cpu. I didn't think of using it for the BPPC... I think I'll be doing it, it seems a good idea

[phipscube]

Yeah, they are great, I got mine here: -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Search for " Copper Heatsink&Thermal Pads For MXM Graphics Cards" if that link doesn't work. I peeled off the thermal pads and used arctic silver instead though. I just noticed it says 0.5mm thick, its more 1mm in real life or maybe 0.8 - 0.9

Its got a nice smooth finish so perfect for putting on a small CPU. And because its copper, its heat transfer is awesome. The aluminium one you get wont be as effective as copper but it will be ok too.

[Retrofan]

I already bought some a time ago, and with the dollar exchange they are cheaper:
http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Yes, I was thinking the same. To repair the XBox better I use them too.

Another thing: what's that "Custom made oscillator" you've hidden under the heat shrink?

[thgill]

Outstanding work on the heatsink solution. Plus I like the mesh on the trapdoor.


I always thought someone should do a run of new trapdoor covers that are designed with accelerators in mind. Add ventilation holes in it and have it instead of being flush with the bottom of the A1200, bulge down a couple mm thereby giving extra clearance to accelerators and such.

[delshay]

fan on CPU is not a bad idea as DCE used it. perhaps fan should face air vents towards the front of A1200 to get riid of the heat away instead of blowing hot air across other componets (like laptops).

you also have to think about if the fan fails the CPU temperture is going to rise very rapidly.

i use rocker switch x2 for power & monitor. looks better on my project like what you get on the old commodore power supply or monitors,but watch out for different width.. it just about fits.

[phipscube]

@ retrofan, the custom oscillator is made by Stachu100 who I got the PPC card off. He makes them this way so that they can be socketed and changed as needed. Great for checking how far you can go. Mine is limited to 60MHz as I have a BVision attached, but without it, his modded cards can go up to 72Mhz on the 060 as he uses the Rev 6 060. The PPC is 330Mhz (300MHz 603 overclocked to 330MHz). The second regular crystal dictates that, its a 60MHz one too, replacing the original 50Mhz.

@thgill, yeah its been discussed here: -

http://amibay.com/showthread.php?t=1...light=trapdoor

It was eventually deemed too expensive.

@delshay

Actually I did first think of putting two fans on, one on PPC and one on 060, both facing the front as there is already grills there ready to pour air out of (well, after a bit of a drilling inside the trapdoor) But I wanted to try and make it more elegant and run from the power connector on the BPPC. I ended up deciding to risk it this way and see if it reduced the heat on the 060, and it did by around 12 deg C (from an average of 62 to 50). With the whole card now generally running below 60 Deg C i'm happy with it. When I touch the mesh its not hot either now, just warm. Before it got scorching hot with that PPC heatsink sitting almost on top of it. If the fan does break it will be a nightmare, but i'll risk it. I can hear it when i'm on the amiga anyway and will never leave it running long on its own...... and generally now, its barely as loud as a regular laptop. And that was my other aim, to take the noise level down

I'll check out the rocker thing though

[delshay]

i would have put the fan facing foward towards the air vent and made the 060 have a very light contact with the trapdoor metal cover, in-effect make the trapdoor cover become a large heatsink for the 060 (untested).

it maybe possible to add a alarm to the fan if it fails.

*all modification at your own risk*

here's my old workbench will update soon with-in the next two months.

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3417

[phipscube]

@delshay, Thats a good idea too, I considered getting a big lump of Aluminium and making a custom heatsink that sat on the PPC and 060 and then against the mesh, which is similar, but I figured it would be lots of effort to get the sink made correctly. I like your suggestion on a fan alarm, i'm looking into that as it is better to be safe than sorry As it is now, the air blowing on the 060 is warm, but it still reduces the temps very effectively, the air also just seeps out through the mesh keeping that fairly cool too, well its not scorching hot anyway

Nice WB pic... is that OS 4.1 Classic?

[DDNI]

Great thread! Not sure how I missed it for so long!

I like the hackery, but one thing worries me. Phipscube, did you really superglue things onto your BPPC PCB?

[fitzsteve]

Originally Posted by DDNI

...but one thing worries me. Phipscube, did you really superglue things onto your BPPC PCB?

I missed that before - bold move there mate, guess they wont be coming off any time soon

Is Superglue safe to use on PCB's?

[phipscube]

Yeah I used superglue..... I know it sounds a bit shabby, but its holding very strong. I've done this before on Circuit boards and its not caused any problems, it tends to be very secure too. I apply a very thin layer of glue to the underside of the nut, then a light amount of heat from a hair dryer a few moments after contact, this tends to help it bond alot stronger, especially to the nylon. then I applied a bit more glue around the edges of the nylon nuts, then heated again whilst its still wet, then let it air dry for 1 hour.

The applied pressure on the nuts is very little and the screws are only lightly tightened. The nylon sits fast as its not easily coming loose in its own thread, also the screw head had to be melted around a bit to make it fit in the small recess of the Heatsink mount hole, I purposely made them a bit tight against the sides so this helps with keeping them put

[DDNI]

OMG I thought I had misread the post. Permanently Super gluing onto a £600 irreplaceable PCB!!!??


You got serious cahoonas!!!

[phipscube]

HAHA! Thats about what happened to them the moment I glues them suckers on They are becoming quite awkward in public already to be honest, you should see some of the looks I get.

[Retrofan]

It may be a little off topic, but this morning I've received the kit for the XBox, and it hadn't an aluminium, cut to size plate as it was told, but a large copper one. I've put it (plus Artic paste) and the XBox is working like a charm , no more 3 red lights, and I've been playing Call of duty for an hour or so... the hours seemed seconds...

I will be using another for the BPPC for sure...

[phipscube]

Putting a copper plate as such should be done as standard on any CPU (if the heatsink isn't copper already), I think its omitted in most cases due to the price of copper being higher than Aluminium. Anyway, glad your XboX is running again mate

[Retrofan]

Thanks @phipscube, but is`s from my wife`s brother (a friend gave it to him for free, as it was "broken")... but he is out for holidays...jeje

I agree, it`s a good idea to use it.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by phipscube

Putting a copper plate as such should be done as standard on any CPU (if the heatsink isn't copper already), I think its omitted in most cases due to the price of copper being higher than Aluminium

Um, i fail to follow your reasoning. CPU's are given a heatspread during manufacturing, to provide protection during the install of a heatsink. From that point on, it's a drawback, not an advantage. You need better cooling then what the aluminium heatsink give you when in direct contact with the CPU die? Use a copper cooler. Or at least a copper core cooler. But only if it's really needed. It's more expensive, there is less of it in circulation, it's heavier placing a larger load on stuff, and so on.

Adding a copper sheet to act as heatspread is all about spreading the heat over a larger area, but your still only using the same contact surface to transfer it, so there is no benefit to it, as compared to a better cooler.
Not to mention that even the smallest amount of heatpaste is a lot worse as a conduction-layer then the cheapest aluminum coolers base, and adding a plate means you have to pass 2 of these layers.
The "fix" for the Xbox is only used due to Microsoft being to cheap to use a better cooler to start with.
B!

[phipscube]

@Mr B, I'm no thermal expert so I wont argue your theory, but in practical terms, Which I am, I go on what i've done in real life, and being a technician I always base my work on experience not theory. And in my experience, if you mount a copper plate, or an aluminium heatsink with a copper base, or a full copper heatsink, into a rig that previously had only aluminium, you can reduce the original fan speed and achieve similar temps with a fan moving slower.

The reason why I put the copper plate in there is because I want the heat to be taken away quicker to compensate for the fan being quite a weak unit. If i'd placed the heatsink as it was on the CPU directly without the copper plate, the heat buildup would be greater, thus as you say, i'd need better cooling, but I don't have that option.

In a games console, you don't want big ass noisy fans, so putting copper in place of aluminium is a better solution, for the Xbox they could have at least put in an aluminium heatsink with a copper base, when I said plate, I didn't necesarily mean seperated with the need for two paste layers. And as Retrofan has proven, put a copper plate on an EXISTING Aluminium heatsink soluiton (which has crapped out) makes it work again. You can argue and say better cooling should be put in the Xbox, I agree on that too, but the copper plate helps greatly. Thats my point.

[delshay]

i did say in this thread that the 060 to have a small contact with A1200 trapdoor metal cover. this is problely now a bad idea as the cover may get very warm and the fan will not be picking up clean air.

you also have to be very carefull as the heat cycle may weaken the glue.

there may be another problem,the glue is coming into contact with the PLCC trace which it a mirror of the BGA pads.

depending on what type of glue,it can have a effect on CPU and lead to randon errors this is why i avoided this type of modifcation.

[Retrofan]

Hey, wait a moment... I've just taked out the BPPC cooler and it already has a copper plate in contact with the CPU... so...

What I'm thinking now is to take out that thin copper plate, file the aluminium of the BPPC cooler under it and put a thicker copper plate. Seems a good idea, don't you think?

[Mr B]

@phipscube: I argued about the "every CPU should have" part. What every CPU should have is sufficient cooling. You achieve this by testing, and designing your product, and then taking specs, defining what cooling needs you got, and what space you got. Microsoft probably did this part real thorough. Then someone in an attempt to save money, and with lacking understanding of how the product was designed cut costs, perhaps by changing materials for the cooler, or simply picking a generic cooler from someones lineup to replace a in house design that meet a very specific need.

Adding a copper plate as in this case, is a patch. It works, even tho it's not optimal. What should have done, is that Microsoft fessed up, and solved the problem once and for all, by providing a proper cooling solution. But for all intents and purposes, and with regards to what a end user is capable to do with the hardware, it might be close to the best solution...
B!

[phipscube]

@delshay

You have some good points, and things that I considered.

Firstly, Superglue isn't conductive at all, and its not corrosive, so even if the PLCC pads were exposed copper it would be no problem.

Heating and cooling should also be ok, its not a good conductor of heat, very much an insulator, so its a definite no no under a CPU cooler, but on a board like this combined with the nylon nuts I think it will hold ok, I can't in anyway be 100%, and that was a risk when I did it. Get back to me in a year or so and i'll tell you if it is still holding

@Retrofan, Yeah I have a similar lump under my PPC Heatsink, but I decided to leave it alone incase I ever want to put all my PPC back to how it was (plus some nylon nuts, those will stay forever). Hence why I chose to use completely different parts. That, my friend, would be a risk you have to decide for yourself if you want to do it

@Mr B. You are right about MS and their cost cutting, I do believe that at some point someone has taken away vital design elements to cut costs without a thought on how it would work in real life. But I still stand on the copper on all CPU's, regardless of how efficient the cooling design is, having copper directly connected to the CPU rather than aluminium is instantly more efficient, the only argument against it is the weight, but I've personally had a full copper Zalman Heatsink on a CPU at 90 degrees with no problems, the reason for this is well designed mounting solutions. At the end of the day, the only reason NOT to use Copper is cost.

[delshay]

it has nothing to do with being conductive.

this is one of many ways i test my system

play WIPEOUT 2097 use track with the snow i think the track begins with a *s*. come with-in the top three where a medal is spinning. do not touch anything leave it like this for a hour but keep a eye on it. if you return to the computer after lets say two hours and the medal is still rotating (ie no lock-ups) leave it running for lets say 14 hours. if no lock-up your computer is on the right track.

next do the same with HERETIC II,kill the rat at the start and leave the computer on for 14 hours there should be no lock-ups.

you can turn the monitor off during this test. when returning to the computer just turn the monitor on and see if the game is still running.

[fitzsteve]

I don't suggest you do what delshay is suggesting. This hardware may have been happy to run for 14 hours in its hay day but I know from Retr0 R3play how hot these PPC's can get just after running for a few hours, thats in a Tower with the sides off!

No point trying to test this aging kit to destruction just to prove a point

[delshay]

its one of many test i use. not all my modifcation passed this test but gives you some idea how it will behave over a long period of time as i find there is little point in playing WIPEOUT or HERETIC II if the game locks-up every now and then.

modifcation will need to be checked at some point over a long period. sometime im in front of my computer for over 5 hours plus.

its will test how good your modifyed cooling system is,of course all modifcation and test at your own risk.

[Retrofan]

I agree fitzsteve, that sounds to me like Put it under the shower for an hour and later we will see if this thread goes on... don't want to offend either, but... it seems too much time

[delshay]

there are users that leave there computers on for weeks i can find a thread on this,there hardware may not be as old. i monitor the temperture on my system lets say every 15 mins with-in the first two hours,then i leave it on over-night with the monitor turned off.

if something goes wrong with my system its not a problem for me,i just fix the problem.

my system can pass this test but i have a very good cooling system where i use a single slim blower mounted on the back of the keyboard with the onboard modifyed fan as seen below.

this is why i have the fastest Blizzard/Bvision combo in the *world* but it must pass a set of test.

try the FFTDemo test. it will be a very long time before anyone gets near my results on a Blizzard card, and if there do i will lower the mark.

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?u=1979

[delshay]

i did say DCE used this type of fan on Blizzard card but *only* on 160Mhz version of the PPC chip and i do belive this was only on the PLCC chips.

the fan in this thread on the PPC chip i did test this modifcation,but this combo the PPC chip temperture was a little to high on a 300Mhz PPC processor.

the fan/heatsink combo is this thread is better than the one i have here but its the same size so will expect better cooling performance.

[phipscube]

@delshay, Are you talking about leaving AMIGAS on for this long, or PC's? I'm really never ever going to leave my Amiga on for such a period of time, it will only be when I'm sitting there with it. Thanks for the specific moments in games to test though, I will try them one day when my system software is set up fine, but never for such a long period, maybe 2 or 3 hours whilst i'm looming around watching, but not 14 hours or overnight, no offence, but I don't see the point. I'm not that hardcore, and i'm quite happy to run my system at 60MHz for the sake of nice BVision operation, no more

Let me just put it this way, with this current solution, its all running a fair bit cooler than with the official fan + sink (which in my opinion was worryingly loose on them crappy clips) so given that argument, if the PPC card is going to fail, it would more likely fail with the original solution, and as Steve can probably verify, the modified 300MHz PPC chips that Stachu100 puts on these, actually run cooler than the older PPC chips so comparing DCE's solution only applying to the 160MHz PLCC chips doesn't really hold either.

I think the only reason why they used this kind of cooler on the PLCC chips is because you can physically stick them on and there is no danger of the sink wobbling and destroying the top of the processor. This guy has one of the 160MHz cards you mentioned by DCE, and you can see its on a PLCC chip and from his comments, its "cemented on" I actually made a comment and he responded: -

http://www.8bitplus.co.uk/articles/amiga-blizzard-ppc/

You cannot stick the sink to the newer BGA chips, the slightest movement could be destructive, hence why I used stand off posts to stop any adverse pressure from the screws and at the same time offering stability without relying on the PPC itself to hold the sink + fan on. also avoiding the sticky thermal pad/cement and using thermal paste instead makes heat transfer more efficient. There is also no way they could have mounted this type of heatsink and fan on a BGA chip without modifying the board to include mounting holes so thats probably another reason why they didn't use them.

I saw the AmiJoe also used a similar type of solution, but here the board was designed from the offset with mounting holes, notice how the G3 processor can be as high as 400MHz: -

http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/amijoe

Anyway, overall, I'm happy with what i've done and fairly confident that it will last, but lets see, if it does go tits up then I will come back here and let you all know and you can say how much of a douche I am

[delshay]

i don't want anyone to destroy their card,but it's one of many test i use. i have no problem with cooling and i can leave my system on for two days with no problems whatsoever.

my set-up is a little extreme,but its pointless if it does not work well.

your biggest test will come in hot summer months,this is what you have to take into account when normal air temperture rises.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by phipscube

Really like what you've done here, looks great and bet it helps considerably with keeping things cool.

Where did you source such a thin fan?

[Retrofan]

@Phiscube how do you meassure the temp in the components?

I would like to meassure mines (Whenever I'll connect it).

Actually I've connected two fans as I said. Would it be too much to connect a 3rd one (this time over the large chip near the cooler) to the BPPC connector? Too much current demain perhaps?
EDIT: Or noisy as hell?...

Or perhaps you, Delshay can answer, as you have 3 fans over the BVision, but I don't know if all connected to it.

[fitzsteve]

@Retr0Fan,

I have another feed from my ATX PSU going into the back of my A1200 at the RF area, it has a couple of fan slpitters off the Molex to drive that fans, I think thats better then overloading the Floppy Header or the BPPC fan connector.

Or next best option would be PicuPSU, not sure what Les uses as his solution, maybe he has soldered extra headers to the main power input?

Steve.

[Retrofan]

I see what you say:


Can't you just take those volts soldering a cable internally to the Amiga Psu connector?

EDIT: Ah, ok you say "maybe he has soldered extra headers to the main power input"

[fitzsteve]

Originally Posted by Retrofan

I see what you say:


Can't you just take those volts soldering a cable internally to the Amiga connector for the Psu?

I don't want to solder anything, I always like to keep my mods simple and easy to reverse.

But sure you could do that if you wanted to.

[phipscube]

@delshay, aye i'm preparing to do some good thorough testing over the summer period, I hope it doesn't get too hot!

@Hewitson, Thanks mate! The fan I got off ebay, its a Matsushita model # UDQFNKH11. Ebay Link: -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=390295377813

@Retrofan, I use an infra red thermometer like this: -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Non-Contact-IR...item41583f6336

The great thing with these is you can move around the parts easily, the downside is that the temps aren't as accurate as a probe (+-2 deg C) but you get a nice quick check and reading.

As regards power, all links to my power are directly connected in some form or another to the A1200 power connector. If you look earlier in my project thread you should see this: -






This puts more juice at the Floppy header and also loops off a 12V lead for my fan controller. This is easily reversable by desoldering the three wires off the power connector.

Please do not add any fans on the floppy connector unless you have already added voltage lines from the main PSU connector, then if there is ever a fan fault you PSU takes the strain and not your precious A1200 MB tracks. I think the max current you can draw on the floppy connector is around 1A. If anyone is heavily modding thier system like mine then you NEED to make the three power lines, dont settle for just 5V, do 12V AND Ground also to be sure its all tied to the PSU. If your not sure, then steves method with the molex out is a good idea too

edit: -

And just incase your all wondering why I didn't solder the wires completely out of sight under the board, its because I could easily disconnect the extra power lines for testing purposes.

[fitzsteve]

Aye, I remember seeing that now - in fact I think you posted in my thread. As always its expertly done as we've come to expect from you

I really don't have the confidence to do this type of thing hence going with the simpler Molex method

[Retrofan]

I'll be doing that, but I think it isn't necessary to connect it to the floppy first, or is it?
I already have tried for months a cd and a fan connected both to the floppy connector without problems. In fact that's what I've got in the A1200 with ACA .

But ok, I'll be doing it this time.