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Old 17 February 2010, 22:41   #41
frank_b
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Originally Posted by athiga View Post
also staying on topic the st had more games in the early days because
it was less complex to code on 'with out all the custom chips .i never coded
on the st but thats the impression i got. as for its looks' ive seen better
paving slabs. and the thought of it sounding like a speccy didnt apeal to me
at all
alot of st ports didnt add any hardware improvements
such as gold runner ect

good for to you if you like them am not anti atari but lean far to amiga
Both fantastic machines and I've coded on both. Different mindset. ST is 68k only.

Pushing the base ST is actually pretty complex as it lacks hw scrolling, blitter etc.

There is some *really* technical stuff out there on the ST. 50 hz overscan, 8 way scrolling mapper with a 4 channel module playing on the Dark side of the spoon demo for instance.

That all requires beam synchronous code, fiddling with the sync mode register at exact places on the screen to open borders and setting the low byte of the screen address.

The Amiga isn't that complex to be honest. Coming from the ST you can pick it up pretty fast but the ST would be easier to learn as a beginner. The Amiga is a lovely machine at the chip and OS level. It's a work of art but a600 and A1k aside I don't rate the aesthetics of the case design. IMHO it lets the machine down. Each to their own.
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Old 18 February 2010, 00:12   #42
_ThEcRoW
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Amiga 500!!!. By the way, i think that ataris are cool too
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Old 18 February 2010, 02:17   #43
athiga
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yes i understand atarians getin there machines to do tricks that the hardware lacks part of the chalange
i was refering to very first days of a500 when people were still tryin to figure out how to use custom chips and atari games were 8 bit style as was alot of amiga games
i was in awe of my amiga a500 1.2 and often looked over to the atari
guys to see them the same wachin some smooth scrolling being wowed

i can understand what the big fuss about shodow of the beast on amiga
was as certain titles pushed the hardware and made you look

not a good game just showed off the pre release spread like fire

i still love the old doc demo with the demons

im not that familiar with st but can imagine you also having simlar
memorys of seing somthin push the atari hardware beyond what you
thought posible and thats were the relationship is

like i think the zx81 is cool because it had mazogs and 3d monster maze lol

i think ive waffled long enough now!

cool !

Last edited by athiga; 18 February 2010 at 02:29.
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Old 02 March 2010, 19:25   #44
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Originally Posted by frank_b View Post
Pushing the base ST is actually pretty complex as it lacks hw scrolling, blitter etc.


The Amiga isn't that complex to be honest.
The Amiga pretty much has the most ambitious chipset ever made in a home computer. If you mean that an 8-way 'mapper' and music playing at the same time to boot(!) isn't complex to do on a base Amiga, well I couldn't agree more...?

And certainly you have to write complex code to make the ST do things it wasn't designed to do, like games with stuff moving around.

As a result, many ST coders learned more 68000 tricks and wrote tighter code than most Amiga coders.

But the complexity is then in the software, as you mentioned.

I guess you don't really mean that the Amiga design wasn't complex, certainly not contrasted by the rudimentary 'off-the-shelf' designs of MSX, ST, PC, etc.
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Old 02 March 2010, 19:38   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank_b
There is some *really* technical stuff out there on the ST. 50 hz overscan, 8 way scrolling mapper with a 4 channel module playing on the Dark side of the spoon demo for instance.

That all requires beam synchronous code, fiddling with the sync mode register at exact places on the screen to open borders and setting the low byte of the screen address.
When you say this stuff it makes the ST sound like a 16 bit C64 - these are all the types of things required to do certain effects on the C64.

But then I suppose Tramiel did go to Atari after Commodore and from the sounds of it maybe took some engineers with him...
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Old 03 March 2010, 02:49   #46
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Except the C64 had some extra registers for common game/VDU features, such as scrolling.

I don't know if there's a link, necessarily - most home computers had no raster interrupt or copper to time things. On the MSX, Spectrum, I could go on... any tricks pulled on the VDU was pulled with CPU-cycle-timing calculations or wait loops from HSYNC signal or similar.
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Old 03 March 2010, 03:57   #47
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for me Atari is a T-Shirt an old man wears to try to be cool, but he actually owned a NES ointsfinger

seriously, Atari computer were ok, well the ST was. alright
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Old 03 March 2010, 09:25   #48
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The Amiga pretty much has the most ambitious chipset ever made in a home computer. If you mean that an 8-way 'mapper' and music playing at the same time to boot(!) isn't complex to do on a base Amiga, well I couldn't agree more...?

And certainly you have to write complex code to make the ST do things it wasn't designed to do, like games with stuff moving around.

As a result, many ST coders learned more 68000 tricks and wrote tighter code than most Amiga coders.

But the complexity is then in the software, as you mentioned.

I guess you don't really mean that the Amiga design wasn't complex, certainly not contrasted by the rudimentary 'off-the-shelf' designs of MSX, ST, PC, etc.
I'm saying that given the good documentation available (HRM etc) it isn't a hard machine to learn to use. I learned on the ST first then did some coding on the Amiga. An 8 way mapper on the Amiga isn't hard to do.

Something like Enchanted Lands at 50fps on an ST is more impressive given the limitations of the shifter in a standard ST.

The ST has timers which can be used to trigger beam synchronous interrupts, palette split etc. Opening the top/bottom and left borders using timers isn't that tricky. Opening the right hand side involves writing beam sync code. Opening all four borders, playing a four channel mod whilst having a full screen 50fps 8 way mapped scroller... That's impressive for an ST. It's pretty good code.
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Old 03 March 2010, 11:57   #49
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I compare the ST to Betamax videos - they were probably better but just never caught on. I played on one when I was a nipper and remember thinking that it looked and sounded nice... but the games were pants
 
Old 03 March 2010, 12:35   #50
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I played on one when I was a nipper and remember thinking that it looked and sounded nice... but the games were pants
Show me an ST that sounds "nice" o____O (sorry, could not resist )
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Old 03 March 2010, 15:02   #51
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Even today the Amiga rules
Fack off Core2Duo and Windows 7 you are not needed
The Atari could not come close it was mearly a games console
Amiga fights in the playground flew
Atari boys eating tarmac and heads flushed down the loo
For the Amiga was champion and everybody knew
The Curriculum was taught, Amiga inspired
The war was won, Amiga stands victorious
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Old 03 March 2010, 15:06   #52
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I compare the ST to Betamax videos - they were probably better but just never caught on.
What? Betamax was the (technically) better system, so I take it you say that the ST was the better system too? That blatant ripoff? Bwahahaha! You made my day
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Old 03 March 2010, 16:42   #53
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Hehe, blinked a bit at that simily too. For it to work, the ST would have to have been better than something and still sell way worse. But both Amiga and ST sold in huge numbers, so...
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Old 03 March 2010, 22:53   #54
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Show me an ST that sounds "nice" o____O (sorry, could not resist )
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi...rist/124.shtml
Have a listen to some modern ST chip music with SID voice. I like it. Another example of getting way more than the spec from a rather weak sound chip

Frank
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Old 04 March 2010, 19:03   #55
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Well, I was a nipper at the time, I haven't heard an ST for many years!
 
Old 04 March 2010, 19:11   #56
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http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi...rist/124.shtml
Have a listen to some modern ST chip music with SID voice. I like it. Another example of getting way more than the spec from a rather weak sound chip

Frank
Well... I think I just shut it as everybody can hear the music
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Old 05 March 2010, 04:51   #57
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Actually, being honest, no, the A***** S* looks shit compared to the Amiga 500/600/1200.
You need glasses, the A500 was the worst looking C= machine ever let alone just Amiga. It looked like a C128 made of ice cream left in the sun...and sprayed a shitty beige brown colour LOL Next you will be saying Amy Winehouse is beautiful and Charlize Theron is a dog Let's face it design was the original ST (not STE/STFM) casing pissed on the A500 casing design from a great height...no...from orbit The only problem the original ST had was the circuit board inside it!

The most stunning Amigas were A1000 and A3000, A600 and A1200 were OK too, A4000 and A2000 bland beyond belief but at least they were well built and had great keyboards.

Last edited by ImmortalA1000; 05 March 2010 at 04:52. Reason: typo correction
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Old 05 March 2010, 13:28   #58
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You need glasses, the A500 was the worst looking C= machine ever let alone just Amiga. It looked like a C128 made of ice cream left in the sun...and sprayed a shitty beige brown colour LOL Next you will be saying Amy Winehouse is beautiful and Charlize Theron is a dog Let's face it design was the original ST (not STE/STFM) casing pissed on the A500 casing design from a great height...no...from orbit
Right... because it was grey and had angular F keys... seriously, the question who needs glasses here is quite obviously answered
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Old 05 March 2010, 13:31   #59
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Slanted F keys are bloody hideous. A500 looks a dated now but nowhere near as bad as the ST
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Old 05 March 2010, 13:38   #60
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You need glasses, the A500 was the worst looking C= machine ever let alone just Amiga. It looked like a C128 made of ice cream left in the sun...and sprayed a shitty beige brown colour LOL Next you will be saying Amy Winehouse is beautiful and Charlize Theron is a dog Let's face it design was the original ST (not STE/STFM) casing pissed on the A500 casing design from a great height...no...from orbit The only problem the original ST had was the circuit board inside it!

The most stunning Amigas were A1000 and A3000, A600 and A1200 were OK too, A4000 and A2000 bland beyond belief but at least they were well built and had great keyboards.
I can't possibly reply to that post, I'm laughing too much.
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