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Old 07 January 2010, 12:53   #121
Paul_s
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I understand the pessimism but this is a real machine. This isn't the crap released since 1994. There's a lot of potential with the Xena customizable chip. Someone associated from Hyperion said the processor will be much higher than 1.6GHZ. This machine could become a hobbyist's dream. Since this is Hyperion's first step in the hardware direction with more plans for the future why not support it.

I switched to PC back in 1994 because I didn't have much choice. Now, I'm seriously considering ditching the PC altogether. I can do pretty much everything I need on this new amiga box along with an install of linux. I have my android phone as well for mobile tasks. Why not just get a cheap linux box? I want to support OS4 and undoubtedly OS5. While development for OS4 is decent currently I think it will only blossom once these machines hit the streets. I use windows to play the odd game nowadays but I'm mainly using my xbox 360 for that.

2010 is going to be a great year for the Amiga community. If classic amiga is your thing I can understand not giving a hoot for this new machine. But for those of us who have wanted to see what AmigaOS can do on a modern machine will be very excited about its release.

Besides, the only people who require an intel processor are the ones running bloated software. That fact has never changed.
But there is no steady funding for OS 5 which has been in development for the past 8 years... (even Hyperion admit to this) People are not going to go out and buy a $500 piece of hardware and just wait to see if Hyperion releases OS5... OS 4.1 isn't much cop even next to XP.

Sales of OS4/4.1 are probably less than a 1000 imo as;

A) PPC cards are rare/very expensive
B) OS4 is overpriced for what it is, you can get an XP licence for half the price which has a massive software base
C) AmigaOne/SAM hardware is also very expensive for what it is and is using technology that is obsolete

There's also no guarantee that any other software developer will come out of the woodwork either

White Elephant. Year 2010 will be the same as before, nice new hardware for classic, OS4 - maybe 4.2 with small updates.

Last edited by Paul_s; 07 January 2010 at 13:02.
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Old 07 January 2010, 14:15   #122
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I approve, and I hope to see (and buy) one this year.

I think the xcore is fantastically interesting: a lot of designs at a high level are recommending event driven architecture, and having a processor that is based on the same, whilst also providing a foundation for massive parallelism is decidedly tasty. I completely understand why hyperion are excited to see where X ends up!

And we're back into hitting the hardware directly (somewhat)

Paul_s: os4 overpriced? Sure you can get an XP licence for half the price but you can get a 10 year old Evo VI that will annihilate many supercars on a wet road... The value someone gets out of something isn't the same for everyone.
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Old 07 January 2010, 14:45   #123
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I approve, and I hope to see (and buy) one this year.

I think the xcore is fantastically interesting: a lot of designs at a high level are recommending event driven architecture, and having a processor that is based on the same, whilst also providing a foundation for massive parallelism is decidedly tasty. I completely understand why hyperion are excited to see where X ends up!

And we're back into hitting the hardware directly (somewhat)

Paul_s: os4 overpriced? Sure you can get an XP licence for half the price but you can get a 10 year old Evo VI that will annihilate many supercars on a wet road... The value someone gets out of something isn't the same for everyone.
hmm I guess so, we'll see or not is the case...

I may buy one, so will plant the tree to provide the money
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Old 07 January 2010, 15:24   #124
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I agree that marketing was kinda lame, but it did generate a bit of buzz, aw.net had many visitors and new signups during the quizz.

For myself, all I wanted was cheaper motherboards and more performance (the x86 dream), so this was sort of letdown, IMHO if they added a chip to the mobo they could just as well added an x86 CPU as a co-CPU too?

It is great to see that development of the true AmigaOS built from the one true WB3.1 sourcepack lives on, but at the same time I get sick of all the asslickers claiming this to be the biggest thing happening in the world of Amiga.
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Old 07 January 2010, 16:51   #125
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..It is great to see that development of the true AmigaOS built from the one true WB3.1 sourcepack lives on, but at the same time I get sick of all the asslickers claiming this to be the biggest thing happening in the world of Amiga.
hmmm ok I'll bite!..so can you please enlighten us as to what "you" think is the biggest thing happening right now in the world of Amiga
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Old 07 January 2010, 16:54   #126
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hmmm ok I'll bite!..so can you please enlighten us as to what "you" think is the biggest thing happening right now in the world of Amiga
Minimig IMHO.
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Old 07 January 2010, 17:06   #127
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Minimig IMHO.
I used a Minimig. All it does is running A500 games. I can do the same on my A1200
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Old 07 January 2010, 17:41   #128
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I used a Minimig. All it does is running A500 games. I can do the same on my A1200
Yup but the point is it's a clone. A real clone.
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Old 07 January 2010, 18:49   #129
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But there is no steady funding for OS 5 which has been in development for the past 8 years... (even Hyperion admit to this) People are not going to go out and buy a $500 piece of hardware and just wait to see if Hyperion releases OS5... OS 4.1 isn't much cop even next to XP.

Sales of OS4/4.1 are probably less than a 1000 imo as;

A) PPC cards are rare/very expensive
B) OS4 is overpriced for what it is, you can get an XP licence for half the price which has a massive software base
C) AmigaOne/SAM hardware is also very expensive for what it is and is using technology that is obsolete

There's also no guarantee that any other software developer will come out of the woodwork either

White Elephant. Year 2010 will be the same as before, nice new hardware for classic, OS4 - maybe 4.2 with small updates.
When Hyperion and Amiga Inc. were in court battling over the rights I could not understand why they would even waste their time with all the lawyers fees. It did not make any sense.

Now it does. This is not an announcement saying they are starting a project. This was an announcement stating these machines will be available in the first half of this year pre-loaded with AmigaOS. This is not a motherboard being shilled as before. This is a complete system with a custom case. This is not your run of the mill junk PPC board. It has a slot for the XMOS chip and a new Xorro slot.

Although after all this time I can understand why you feel that way. We'll see soon enough that this machine is the best thing to happen to the community in 16 years.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:03   #130
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When Hyperion and Amiga Inc. were in court battling over the rights I could not understand why they would even waste their time with all the lawyers fees. It did not make any sense.

Now it does. This is not an announcement saying they are starting a project. This was an announcement stating these machines will be available in the first half of this year pre-loaded with AmigaOS. This is not a motherboard being shilled as before. This is a complete system with a custom case. This is not your run of the mill junk PPC board. It has a slot for the XMOS chip and a new Xorro slot.

Although after all this time I can understand why you feel that way. We'll see soon enough that this machine is the best thing to happen to the community in 16 years.
I doubt it. I think it's something designed for some embedded purpose rebranded for Hyperion. The XMOS chips make 0 sense for a desktop machine IMHO. They're far too underpowered. I'm with Dave Haynie on this one. It's obsolete tech. The question remains as to where it came from.

Last edited by frank_b; 07 January 2010 at 19:08.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:09   #131
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Yup but the point is it's a clone. A real clone.
People need to realize there are different camps to the amiga community. A lot of people on this board feel Classic Amiga is the only Amiga and everything else is rubbish. I have no problem with that.

But there is still a healthy community out there with new projects in the works to improve on OS4. Firefox port to O4 amongst many others.

As I said, time will tell whether Hyperion is successful in their plans. However, according to their plans, this is just the beginning. They bit enough that they can properly chew it. They have a machine with modern power that offers something PC's and Mac's do not. This is a great first step. At LEAST they didn't just create a ppc board and plastered a name on it like others in the past.

On a final note, this machine has not just caught the attention of Amiga users but people from the XMOS camps. Linux people are intrigued about the Xena chip. This could be a fun machine to develop for. And that is where the hope lies. That development blossoms and demand for this machine increases.

I havent purchased an Amiga since my A1200. I passed on everything else because I didn't believe in it. But this I do because finally someone is taking the right approach.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:18   #132
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People need to realize there are different camps to the amiga community. A lot of people on this board feel Classic Amiga is the only Amiga and everything else is rubbish. I have no problem with that.

But there is still a healthy community out there with new projects in the works to improve on OS4. Firefox port to O4 amongst many others.

As I said, time will tell whether Hyperion is successful in their plans. However, according to their plans, this is just the beginning. They bit enough that they can properly chew it. They have a machine with modern power that offers something PC's and Mac's do not. This is a great first step. At LEAST they didn't just create a ppc board and plastered a name on it like others in the past.

On a final note, this machine has not just caught the attention of Amiga users but people from the XMOS camps. Linux people are intrigued about the Xena chip. This could be a fun machine to develop for. And that is where the hope lies. That development blossoms and demand for this machine increases.

I havent purchased an Amiga since my A1200. I passed on everything else because I didn't believe in it. But this I do because finally someone is taking the right approach.
This isn't unique at all. There's a dev kit which connects via USB here
https://www.xmos.com/products/develo...evelopment-kit

I'm an embedded software developer who likes Amigas and this is totally underwhelming. It's a low end embedded chip tacked onto a dying CPU architecture (PPC) which isn't comparable to PCs or Macs which are shipping now. In six months time the gap will be even wider. I think any new machine needs a unique selling point (no being 10x slower and 5x expensive isn't a unique selling point) but this isn't. I don't get the point. At the very least it needs to be competitive with other desktop machines to be taken seriously.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:20   #133
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@ Mangar

well put..good to see a fellow Torontian around these parts
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:22   #134
Mangar
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I doubt it. I think it's something designed for some embedded purpose rebranded for Hyperion. The XMOS chips make 0 sense for a desktop machine IMHO. They're far too underpowered. I'm with Dave Haynie on this one. It's obsolete tech. The question remains as to where it came from.
How are they underpowered?

XMOS may make 0 sense for an IBM PC. But this isn't a PC.

Hyperion have put together this machine and gave the community the ability to make it whatever they want it to be. While this may not appeal to the average PC user, the amiga never appealed to the average PC user so nothing new there.

The release of this machine means the OS gets an overhaul to modern times as well. If we're finally able to do what we want to do without requiring a IBM compatible then what's so bad about that.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:28   #135
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How are they underpowered?

XMOS may make 0 sense for an IBM PC. But this isn't a PC.

Hyperion have put together this machine and gave the community the ability to make it whatever they want it to be. While this may not appeal to the average PC user, the amiga never appealed to the average PC user so nothing new there.

The release of this machine means the OS gets an overhaul to modern times as well. If we're finally able to do what we want to do without requiring a IBM compatible then what's so bad about that.
Go to the xmos website and read the literature on the chip. No FPU, very limited memory, low clock speed. Even with the number of threads available on the chip the host CPU will be far faster and have the benefit of being much simpler to code for. I think any special purpose hardware has to be capable of performing some task more efficiently than the host CPU. I think even a single core 1.6 ghz PPC will smoke it. People seem to be in a froth fantasising what they can do with an awesome 400 mips! Go and read Dave Haynie's comment on Amiga world.net.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:30   #136
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This isn't unique at all. There's a dev kit which connects via USB here
https://www.xmos.com/products/develo...evelopment-kit

I'm an embedded software developer who likes Amigas and this is totally underwhelming. It's a low end embedded chip tacked onto a dying CPU architecture (PPC) which isn't comparable to PCs or Macs which are shipping now. In six months time the gap will be even wider. I think any new machine needs a unique selling point (no being 10x slower and 5x expensive isn't a unique selling point) but this isn't. I don't get the point. At the very least it needs to be competitive with other desktop machines to be taken seriously.
This machine will not be 10x slower. Maybe 10x slower running windows. I think you feel what I'm saying is that Amiga is back on the map. No, but it's the best thing we've had by FAR since Escom went bankrupt.

No one ever said this was a pc killer. But it will spawn new development for OS4+ and that is a good thing.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:34   #137
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This machine will not be 10x slower. Maybe 10x slower running windows. I think you feel what I'm saying is that Amiga is back on the map. No, but it's the best thing we've had by FAR since Escom went bankrupt.

No one ever said this was a pc killer. But it will spawn new development for OS4+ and that is a good thing.
My bad. I was referring to the SAM there which is woefully underpowered. I hope you're right about the OS but I can't see it growing the number of users.
It needs something to attract developers and grow the user base and I can't see anything there that'll do that sadly.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:35   #138
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Go to the xmos website and read the literature on the chip. No FPU, very limited memory, low clock speed. Even with the number of threads available on the chip the host CPU will be far faster and have the benefit of being much simpler to code for. I think any special purpose hardware has to be capable of performing some task more efficiently than the host CPU. I think even a single core 1.6 ghz PPC will smoke it. People seem to be in a froth fantasising what they can do with an awesome 400 mips! Go and read Dave Haynie's comment on Amiga world.net.
Dave Haynie is like you. He is comparing this to PC's and Mac's in the wrong way.

First, let's compare it to the SAM. Is it betteR? Much Better. Does it give people processing power to do things they were unable to do except on PC's? Yes, finally. Finally, with the updates to OS4 we can choose to use AmigaOS again.

This is no more obsolete than x86 architecture. Computers would be so much cooler today if everyone didn't jump on that bus..
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:38   #139
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My bad. I was referring to the SAM there which is woefully underpowered. I hope you're right about the OS but I can't see it growing the number of users.
It needs something to attract developers and grow the user base and I can't see anything there that'll do that sadly.
Well, I remember a lot of people back in the 80's/90's developing for the Amiga because it was fun. I, personally, hope this is just as much fun to develop for. The Amiga community is fairly creative.
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Old 07 January 2010, 19:46   #140
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Dave Haynie is like you. He is comparing this to PC's and Mac's in the wrong way.

First, let's compare it to the SAM. Is it betteR? Much Better. Does it give people processing power to do things they were unable to do except on PC's? Yes, finally. Finally, with the updates to OS4 we can choose to use AmigaOS again.

This is no more obsolete than x86 architecture. Computers would be so much cooler today if everyone didn't jump on that bus..
Is the PPC available now in speeds equivalent to a high end x86 chip? Nope.
Is there a market for high end desktop PPC chips. Nope. Apple left due to a lack of faith in the road map, PA Semi are gone, Freescale don't care and IBM make chips for consoles. Is the situation likely to change in future? I doubt it.

Is the PPC in any way connected to the 68k? Nope it's an IBM ISA.

Does compiled C/C++ code run slower on a PPC vs x86. Nope. What language is most application software written in? The x86 isn't going anywhere, it's cheap, fast as hell and available. In what way is the PPC "cooler"?
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