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Old 06 January 2010, 12:07   #101
DyLucke
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Hmmm on question comes to my mind actually.

They called Sam440 "low end"... Well, i do assume this one will be more powerful and more expensive...

Question is... Would it be worth the price? Or would it be a wise move to stick with MorphOS and MacMini? It does work quite well on that machine PLUS, AFAIK is going to be implemented for other G4 machines that are WAY CHEAPER, and probably as powerful than this new project.

I have doubts here.

I think using obsolete Mac hardware is the way to go for now, there are quite fairly powered G4 and G5 machines around. This regarding the "new-age miggies"... Natami would be another thing. If it finally comes to light.
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Old 06 January 2010, 12:09   #102
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This is where the Amiga is going to emerge again...
I think you need a reality check.
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Old 06 January 2010, 12:09   #103
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You're a nut.
if I knew how to code and I had source code for OS4 I'd do it myself! Or were you calling the previous post a nut
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Old 06 January 2010, 12:17   #104
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Does anyone have any financial info on Hyperion Entertainment?

I mean, just how big is their operation? Are they a big outfit?

I'm only asking because their site is a little vague
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Old 06 January 2010, 12:19   #105
T_hairy_bootson
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if I knew how to code and I had source code for OS4 I'd do it myself! Or were you calling the previous post a nut
Well I was refering to the previous poster but then I checked your ebay thing and you're nuts too.
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Old 06 January 2010, 12:22   #106
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Urgh, found this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by google search
Juha Niemimaki: 7. Which were your biggest problems so far?

Ben Hermans: Finding the right people for each individual job and the funding of the project.
Funding problems... I don't hold much hope for OS4 or 5.... which is a shame /sigh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Hermans
If Hyperion goes bankrupt, Amiga can assign the development to another company.
It's 1994 all over again! crazy
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Old 06 January 2010, 15:37   #107
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It doesn't seem practical with more viable solutions readily available. I suppose it may be for emulation of older, simpler hardware not needing much power.
I think It may even be possible to emulate x86 programs on top of AmigaOS using these chips. We need more programmers.
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Old 06 January 2010, 15:57   #108
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I think It may even be possible to emulate x86 programs on top of AmigaOS using these chips. We need more programmers.
What's your basis for thinking this is possible? They're 32 bit, integer only, much slower than x86 and have extremely limited RAM. I don't get what the point of adding them is. I also don't see the point of sticking with PPC. It's an embedded chip now that Apple ditched it. It'll stagnate and die in the same manner as the 68k did. If you want to play with an Amiga I'd stick with the real thing*

Frank

*I'm not using the word "classic" since whatever is being peddled by Hyperion/Eyetech/Amiga Inc is sure as heck not a real Amiga.
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Old 06 January 2010, 16:12   #109
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I'd be interested in a new type of Amiga and the newer Amiga OS and I hope it succeeds.

You *must* have useable and supported software to make it succeed though.

Not much point in making a new machine just to run an OS and not much point loading an OS just to stare at the screen.

Problem is it's catch 22:

Who'll use an OS with very little, or worse, no decent software?

Answer: not very many people

Who'll make software for an OS almost no-one uses?

Answer: not very many people, especially not those who run software companies and want to make money.

Still, don't want to be a downer so I'll be keeping my fingers crossed this succeeds...
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Old 06 January 2010, 17:33   #110
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I'd be interested in a new type of Amiga and the newer Amiga OS and I hope it succeeds.

You *must* have useable and supported software to make it succeed though.

Not much point in making a new machine just to run an OS and not much point loading an OS just to stare at the screen.

Problem is it's catch 22:

Who'll use an OS with very little, or worse, no decent software?

Answer: not very many people

Who'll make software for an OS almost no-one uses?

Answer: not very many people, especially not those who run software companies and want to make money.

Still, don't want to be a downer so I'll be keeping my fingers crossed this succeeds...
With the way OS4 as it stands it could be aimed solely at people who run Netbooks... so it'll be pretty much a tye of Linux distribution that you have to pay for and which is rarely updated and probably lacks functionality when surfing websites which are in constant development.

This seriously sucks I think the whole thing needs rethinking in terms of how the software works and which hardware to target it to.

The quote I quoted above are from 2002. We are now in 2010. OS 5 is not in sight. OS4 has been upgraded to 4.1.

I can see OS 4.1 being the nail in the coffin as updates are like a stream bang in the middle of a desert. I feel kind of sad

At least we have WinUAE which can utilise x86 hardware and boot using a Linux distro or use within Windows et al. I guess it kinda defeats OS4 altogether?
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Old 06 January 2010, 23:14   #111
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@frak_b: IBM uses PowerPCs for their blade servers. XBox, Wii and PSP3 feature PowerPC architecture. I think X86 is legacy hardware, not PPC.

There will probably be Linux on the X1000. An OS4 kernel developer more or less confirmed that. So there will be plenty of software. I can imagine a X86 Xorro card, too.

If you just want an original Amiga, then take WinUAE on a standard PC.
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Old 06 January 2010, 23:27   #112
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@frak_b: IBM uses PowerPCs for their blade servers. XBox, Wii and PSP3 feature PowerPC architecture. I think X86 is legacy hardware, not PPC.

There will probably be Linux on the X1000. An OS4 kernel developer more or less confirmed that. So there will be plenty of software. I can imagine a X86 Xorro card, too.

If you just want an original Amiga, then take WinUAE on a standard PC.
Can you right now buy a four core 2 thread per core 64 bit 3.2 ghz PPC chip?
Can you point to any in the wild? No? That's where Intel is *right* now and they aren't standing still. 1.6 ghz with 2 cores is unimpressive.

IMHO It's a dead end architecture. There's no market for desktop PowerPC chips anymore. Apple killed it stone dead. Freescale are pushing it as an embedded CPU now. It's dead as a dodo on the desktop.
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Old 06 January 2010, 23:27   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
I think It may even be possible to emulate x86 programs on top of AmigaOS using these chips. We need more programmers.
My only reason for getting one would be to mess with the APIs and try something new. Anyone here had any experience coding for OS4? Are dev tools and SDKs readily available?
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Old 06 January 2010, 23:41   #114
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Can you right now buy a four core 2 thread per core 64 bit 3.2 ghz PPC chip?
Can you point to any in the wild? No? That's where Intel is *right* now and they aren't standing still. 1.6 ghz with 2 cores is unimpressive.

IMHO It's a dead end architecture. There's no market for desktop PowerPC chips anymore. Apple killed it stone dead. Freescale are pushing it as an embedded CPU now. It's dead as a dodo on the desktop.
I bow my head in shame. You could rip a 64 bit 3.2 ghz PPC chip from a XBox 360, but it only has 3 cores.

Nevertheless, Intel gives you most bang for the buck. No doubt about that.
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Old 06 January 2010, 23:52   #115
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I bow my head in shame. You could rip a 64 bit 3.2 ghz PPC chip from a XBox 360, but it only has 3 cores.

Nevertheless, Intel gives you most bang for the buck. No doubt about that.

In order CPU rather than OOO I believe and m$ had to commission IBM to build it for them.

Go to IBMs website and see if you can buy one. Go to Freescale's website and see them group all PPC chips under microcontollers.

Go to Intel's web site and have a look at their roadmap. I think they're talking 32 cores in the next three years. I am no PPC hater. I own 3 ppc Macs. I think Intel and ARM (for embedded) are the only game in town.

Apple for all their clout couldn't influence the PPC roadmap enough to keep the CPU current for the desktop. Once Freescale start calling any cpu arch embedded it's gonna die a long and painful death like the 68k did

Frank
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Old 07 January 2010, 01:54   #116
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I understand the pessimism but this is a real machine. This isn't the crap released since 1994. There's a lot of potential with the Xena customizable chip. Someone associated from Hyperion said the processor will be much higher than 1.6GHZ. This machine could become a hobbyist's dream. Since this is Hyperion's first step in the hardware direction with more plans for the future why not support it.

I switched to PC back in 1994 because I didn't have much choice. Now, I'm seriously considering ditching the PC altogether. I can do pretty much everything I need on this new amiga box along with an install of linux. I have my android phone as well for mobile tasks. Why not just get a cheap linux box? I want to support OS4 and undoubtedly OS5. While development for OS4 is decent currently I think it will only blossom once these machines hit the streets. I use windows to play the odd game nowadays but I'm mainly using my xbox 360 for that.

2010 is going to be a great year for the Amiga community. If classic amiga is your thing I can understand not giving a hoot for this new machine. But for those of us who have wanted to see what AmigaOS can do on a modern machine will be very excited about its release.

Besides, the only people who require an intel processor are the ones running bloated software. That fact has never changed.

Last edited by Mangar; 07 January 2010 at 03:09. Reason: Adding more to my comment
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Old 07 January 2010, 03:21   #117
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Quote:
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noone with an idea, what could fit in the Xena(s)? *gosh*
what about [ Show youtube player ] emulation ?
since one of the amiga custom chips was inclusing the floppy-controller, is it possible to have one in these Xena(s) - using the xorro-slot to have a floppy connected?

if i got the concept of the Xcore somehow correct, its like an FPGA - but here you have the advantage, its been integrated in a whole system - no need for special developer boards or the like, just an interface card, for what you want connect to it.
doesnt sounds that bad.
It's not an FPGA. It's a sidekick processor that is designed to deliver low-latency responses to external inputs. Since it has 8 threads, it can process interrupts (such as those used in device drivers) with minimal latency. This means it will run existing hardware faster than if the main processor had to be interrupted all of the time.

In case you didn't know, hardware interrupts are expensive on anything newer than a flat 68000 due to pipeline stalls and cache dumping. The newer the processor, the more expensive the interrupts.

--The Long Explanation--
Interrupts are, to make a long story short, for the processor to finish up what it was doing and store all of its registers (temporary storage in the CPU) to memory, do something else for a while (called an interrupt service routine), pick up the contents from its registers from memory again and go back to doing what it was doing before.

The way the Xena chip works is that it keeps the interrupt service routine in its own local store memory (memory inside the Xena chip) and maintains 8 of its own register sets called threads. This means that when something that the Xena chip is controlling needs to do what would normally interrupt the processor, Xena takes care of it herself.

--The Short Illustration--
Xena is like a secretary that takes phone calls and answers mail to make sure the boss doesn't get interrupted unless he has to be.

--How it Applies to Emulation--
A lot of what emulation is is translating memory and port accesses to look like other memory and port accesses on another system. Since I/O chips on the emulated platform are different from the original, Xena can do emulation to imitate the chips for up to 8 things at a time. This frees up the main processor to do faster JIT compilation to actually run the program.

Last edited by Samurai_Crow; 07 January 2010 at 03:23. Reason: Bolded headings for emphesis.
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Old 07 January 2010, 03:45   #118
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You're a nut.
Really? I thought it was a real-life satire.
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Old 07 January 2010, 04:02   #119
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Here is an excellent explanation of what the Xcore co-processor could do for the X1000:

The nice thing about this Xcore processor is that it has hardware mutltithreading with Quality of Service. This makes the XCore awfully suitable for realtime applications.

Todays computers are extremely weak at real time tasks. There are a lot of chips in todays PC's that have the task to buffer data until the CPU has time to process them. For example, while a Commodore 64 can do RS232 rather easy in software, a PC needs UARTs to buffer the data until the CPU has time. Basically all I/O controllers in current PC's, from ethernet, SATA, USB whatever, they just buffer data until the CPU has time to process it.

I/O would be one strength of this chip, it could process data on many wires in realtime without the need for a complex I/O controller.

Another use would be in emulators: Current emulators of C64, Amiga, whatever, work asynchronously: The emulated video controller first generates frames, and when the time is right those are shown. A chip like this could do this in real time.

Sound is another topic that would be very well suited for this chip. Wavetable synthesis is almost impossible to do right in software, because you need large buffers to prevent sound interruptions, while you want to have those buffers as small as possible to respond quickly to sound events (if you push the trigger on your joystick, you want to hear the explosion immedeately, not half a second later). This Xcore would be capable to do software wavetable synthesis just as well as in hardware.

So looking at the big picture: You get very little extra compute power, but this Xcore solves something todays computers are not good at. In fact, while the classic Commodore Amigas didn't have a proper solution, they were quite good at realtime tasks.

I think Hyperion made an interesting choice, rather than focussing on raw computer power they are targetting an area that prevent modern computers from giving the "Amiga experience".

Whether they will succeed is another story, but for anyone interested in computer architecture, this is at least an interesting development.
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Old 07 January 2010, 07:14   #120
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......Whether they will succeed is another story, but for anyone interested in computer architecture, this is at least an interesting development.
ahh finally someone here gets it..it was people who 'thought out of the box' that bought the original Amiga 1000 back in 85 and it will be those same people that buy the new AmigaOne X1000 in 2010.....
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