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Old 05 February 2016, 08:22   #81
kolla
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He clearly wrote 3.X ROM, which for all practical purposes is a 3.9 kickstart ROM. Your use of the words "crippleware" and "frankenstein" are really out of place. Especially when your latest update of BB has pieces from "OS3.2" in it.
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Old 05 February 2016, 09:37   #82
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@kolla

The 3.x rom is not a kickstart 3.9 rom. It has some modules that never came with 3.9 and even some of them are not available anywhere else. If you want I can list them for you, along with some of their differences.

Cloantoīs Amiga Forever 3.x enviroment is not AmigaOS 3.9! It is a mixture of 3.1 with some 3.9 components and some third party ones as Minuous and Cloanto themselves pointed out.

So to call the 3.x Cloanto enviroment "frankenstein" is not far fetched.

Pieces of "OS3.2" replace the remaining pieces of 3.1 that were still in the original 3.9 release and they are pretty well documented.
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Old 05 February 2016, 13:07   #83
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@kolla:

Also, calling OS3.X "crippleware" compared to genuine OS3.9 is not far fetched either. Eg. various included gadgets are obsolete OS3.5 versions which don't support the new features added for OS3.9.

Frankly I'm not sure why you are even posting in this thread, given the fact that only a couple of days ago you tried to ban any mention of the package's existence on amiga.org (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70426), seems like trolling.
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Old 05 February 2016, 20:57   #84
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Amiga.org is almost dead because of people like kolla. Now we have him here spreading his poison. The BB4 people help keep the hobby alive which by the way, helps Cloanto, Jens, and AmigaKit stay in business. If you don't think that there should be a BB4 project, then don't download it. If everybody thinks like kolla and refuses to download it and use it then it will disappear.

Last edited by dannyp1; 05 February 2016 at 21:00. Reason: typo
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Old 06 February 2016, 16:35   #85
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come on guys, stop this, can someone not just talk unbiased about this?

I agree with Cloanto on the fact the Amiga OS dev cycle contains way too much 3rd party apps which fragment the build tree. I personally also disliked some apps being "bundled" with OS3.9 by default, similar to bloatware found on Windows laptops you buy in shops.

To return to the Q: my idea to buy 3.X ROMS is to get some patches already in ROM (esp the HDD capacity thing) and complement the rest through software like an adapted BB4. Possible?
But from what I read here this seems to be a question impossible to answer.
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Old 08 February 2016, 17:26   #86
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I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, but you have to be careful with what modules you add. The 3.X ROM is a nice idea in theory, but Cloanto's solution feels a little thrown together and incomplete to me. For example, doing away with SetPatch altogether isn't the proper way to address clashes between the ROM and SetPatch; a new SetPatch should be written, or the relevant modules disabled. So you'll need to hand-pick which modules to use and which to skip, and make sure what you add with LoadModule etc. will be happy with that setup.
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Old 16 February 2016, 08:25   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
@kolla

The 3.x rom is not a kickstart 3.9 rom. It has some modules that never came with 3.9 and even some of them are not available anywhere else. If you want I can list them for you, along with some of their differences.
Yes. please do.
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Old 16 February 2016, 08:31   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
@kolla:

Also, calling OS3.X "crippleware" compared to genuine OS3.9 is not far fetched either.
I am in the context of the kickstart only.

How is the 3.X kickstart "crippleware" and "frankenstein"?

Quote:
Frankly I'm not sure why you are even posting in this thread, given the fact that only a couple of days ago you tried to ban any mention of the package's existence on amiga.org (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70426), seems like trolling.
I did not try to ban anything on amiga.org - I am all for you posting whatever you want there. I was just pointing out hypocrisy on the site, as others who have done much less than you, have earlier been pinned up on the crucifix there.
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Old 16 February 2016, 08:41   #89
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Originally Posted by dannyp1 View Post
Amiga.org is almost dead because of people like kolla. Now we have him here spreading his poison. The BB4 people help keep the hobby alive which by the way, helps Cloanto, Jens, and AmigaKit stay in business. If you don't think that there should be a BB4 project, then don't download it. If everybody thinks like kolla and refuses to download it and use it then it will disappear.
You got me backwards. Sheesh, are people misunderstanding on purpose? I use BB3+4 pieces myself all the time, I make my own kickstarts for all my systems. This helps Cloanto you say, yet Cloanto are the ones going after people who spread the OS3.1 sources (and v42 (aka 3.2) pieces used in this ver BB3+4 release).

It was not _I_ who removed the links, it was the guy posting it - on request of Amiga.org after Thomas Richter reported him. Amiga.org is _owned_ by AEON and your precious AmigaKit that you mention. THEY did it - I did NOT.

My point in all this, is that "our beloved leaders" in this community show a inconsistent judgement, attacking for example Cosmos for tinkering and releasing his patches, yet ignoring and even praise blatant piracy in the next. My goal would be to make these self acclaimed leaders accept that they cannot have it their way, this community will do whatever the heck we want, and there is nothing they can do about it.

Last edited by kolla; 16 February 2016 at 10:49.
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Old 16 February 2016, 08:46   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkies View Post
I agree with Cloanto on the fact the Amiga OS dev cycle contains way too much 3rd party apps which fragment the build tree. I personally also disliked some apps being "bundled" with OS3.9 by default, similar to bloatware found on Windows laptops you buy in shops.
Totally agree, I have been playing with the idea of making a custom Installer that gives the user more options to exclude all the ... nonsense.

Quote:
To return to the Q: my idea to buy 3.X ROMS is to get some patches already in ROM (esp the HDD capacity thing) and complement the rest through software like an adapted BB4. Possible?
But from what I read here this seems to be a question impossible to answer.
What you want to do is totally possible, and I just do not understand the response you have gotten from the guys here. They should indeed support 3.X kickstarts, as that is what more and more people will have.
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Old 16 February 2016, 10:47   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
Pieces of "OS3.2" replace the remaining pieces of 3.1 that were still in the original 3.9 release and they are pretty well documented.
No they don't, there are plenty of 3.1 pieces left in 3.9. And how/where are the v42 pieces documented? In the source code, I presume.

* Clock from 40.1 to 42.1.

On disk, Not KS.
Yes - good old clock, that barely anyone uses. Nothing really new, maybe some bugfixes and it now features a $VER string, seems the old 3.1 one was missing that.

* Updated iffparse.library from 40.1 to 42.2.

On disk, not KS.
I don't know what is new here.

* Updated CrossDOSFileSystem from 40.19 to 40.24.
On disk, not KS.
I don't know, nor do I care - this filesystem (with its odd quirks, like charset/linefeed conversions) is simply redundant today, we have FAT95.

* Updated Wait from 37.3 to 42.1.

On disk, not KS.
Option flag FILE/K added, wait can now wait for a file to exist, yay.


* Updated Sort from 37.3 to 42.1.

On disk, not KS.
Option flag DESCENDING/S added, reverses the result, yay.


* Updated BindDrivers from 38.2 to 42.1.

On disk, not KS.
BindDrivers, the command that deals with files in SYS:Expansion.
I never had any file in SYS:Expansion, did you? I am curious what hardware needed this features. Anyways, I have no idea what this update is, I have not looked at the changelog.


* Added led.image 42.2.

On disk, not KS.
A class that never was released, and hence never was used.
I do not quite see the purpose of putting this in the BB, what software will ever use it?


* Added MacPaint datatype 42.1.
* Added ICO datatype 42.1.
* Added PCX datatype 42.1.

On disk, not KS.
I skipped these, as I simple never use those formats, and even if I did, there are far better alternatives on aminet.


To sum it up - _nothing_ in the kickstart was updated with v42 components, there are plenty of 3.1 (and earlier) modules left.

Last edited by kolla; 16 February 2016 at 12:09.
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Old 17 February 2016, 02:26   #92
Minuous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
* Added led.image 42.2.

On disk, not KS.
A class that never was released, and hence never was used.
I do not quite see the purpose of putting this in the BB, what software will ever use it?
It was released previously, eg. on the Amiga Developer CD. Various programs already use it, eg. OnyxBase, LedA, EasyGUI, BackClock, etc. Having it as part of the OS makes it more likely other programs will make use of it in the future.

BB3&4 V1.21 has been released, changelog is:
Moved some files that were in the wrong locations.
Improved "Tools|Edit text file..." command.
Updated rexxsyslib.library 44.2 patch from 1.0 to 2.1.
Updated icon.library from 46.4.418 to 46.4.420.
Updated RAM-Handler from 44.23 to 44.24.
Fixed startup-sequence for core-only installations.

Last edited by Minuous; 17 February 2016 at 09:28.
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Old 17 February 2016, 12:45   #93
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Sorry if I'm missing something here, but I've always used this other website in the past to download BB3 and BB4:
http://lilliput.amiga-projects.net/start.htm

I remember reading that this project used to be separate as well in the past, but has since been condensed in a BB3+4 pack. My question is, were they the same project originally or not? (Now that I think of it, I think that the other one was/is made by gulliver?)

Thanks
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Old 17 February 2016, 14:22   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbenam View Post
Sorry if I'm missing something here, but I've always used this other website in the past to download BB3 and BB4:
http://lilliput.amiga-projects.net/start.htm

I remember reading that this project used to be separate as well in the past, but has since been condensed in a BB3+4 pack. My question is, were they the same project originally or not? (Now that I think of it, I think that the other one was/is made by gulliver?)

Thanks
It is the same project, it is just that Minuous files are right now more up to date.
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Old 17 February 2016, 15:19   #95
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Kickstart 45.057 (AmigaOS 3.9) vs Kickstart 45.061 (Amiga Forever 2016)

Workbench.library was removed in all versions of kickstart 45.061 which gives it less flexibility as a system with the issues all A4000T have had since 3.1 for having the same "feature".

Format of comparison: Kickstart 45.057 / Kickstart 45.061 / Comments

exec 45.20 / 45.21 / V45.21 has the RomFixes & SpeedRom patches applied to V45.20. It seems to introduce a new bug (1)
scsi 43.43 / 43.46 / V43.46 has the LBA48 support fixed
filesystem 45.13 / 45.16 / V45.16 contains bugfixes done to V45.13
expansion.library 40.2 / 40.3 / V40.3 contains a bugfix to properly handle some ram expansions


Note (1): It is yet to be confirmed officialy, but some users have reported floppy issues. I have been told that the matter is currently being investigated.


So basically, they are not the same, although they share common ground, and both of them donīt contain the latest modules available, and I am not talking only about hacks, but also some work that the former Amiga Inc. developers have done to bugfix and enhance them. BoingBag 3&4 contains these newer modules, and of course, some other stuff too.

And then here, I am just mentioning kickstart differences. Disk based differences from AmigaOS 3.9 and Amiga Forever 2016 3.x are also quite relevant.
So the point Minuous made, still stands.
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Old 18 February 2016, 22:05   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
So basically, they are not the same, although they share common ground, and both of them donīt contain the latest modules available, and I am not talking only about hacks, but also some work that the former Amiga Inc. developers have done to bugfix and enhance them. BoingBag 3&4 contains these newer modules, and of course, some other stuff too.
They are basically the same. There are more differences between the BB1 ROM update and the BB2 ROM update than there is between KS3.1+BB2 ROM update and the 3.X kickstarts - the 3.X kickstarts are for any practical purpose a 3.9 kickstart.

And, exec.library 45.21 from Cosmos? Really?

Quote:
And then here, I am just mentioning kickstart differences.
Which was what the basis for this discussion.

Quote:
Disk based differences from AmigaOS 3.9 and Amiga Forever 2016 3.x are also quite relevant.
Nope, not at al relevant.

The question was very simple - does BB3+4 work with the 3.X kickstart?

I do not see any reason why not. It makes perfect sense to buy 3.X kickstart when you have OS3.9, simply to make life easier.

Quote:
So the point Minuous made, still stands.
I do not think so, but whatever, I cherry-pick whatever components I want anyhow.

Last edited by kolla; 18 February 2016 at 22:13.
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Old 18 February 2016, 22:12   #97
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Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
It was released previously, eg. on the Amiga Developer CD. Various programs already use it, eg. OnyxBase, LedA, EasyGUI, BackClock, etc. Having it as part of the OS makes it more likely other programs will make use of it in the future.
I will install it when some program asks for it then, not holding my breath
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Old 19 February 2016, 04:30   #98
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Quote:
does BB3+4 work with the 3.X kickstart?
I have not tried, it may work by coincidence but it is not designed for that scenario.

No Boing Bag has ever supported any other Kickstart than 3.1, I don't see why BB3&4 should be any different in that regard.
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Old 19 February 2016, 12:15   #99
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Could someone extract expansion.library V40.3 and send me ?
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Old 19 February 2016, 12:25   #100
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Just buy the 3.X roms to get it. They're new and they're available and they're cheap.
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