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Old 24 December 2009, 00:33   #21
Falcon Flight
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Originally Posted by radon_22 View Post
Ah, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I, on the other hand, have wasted countless hours on this game and enjoyed it greatly.

It is a bit of mixture of Oblivion and Jade Empire, taken to the next level. It is a signature Bioware game: great dialogue and combat, lots of moral dilemmas and choices (much like Knights of the Old Republic), and beautiful graphics.
You have to be pulling my leg, man. A signature of Bioware was never great dialogue, just lots of it. Reams and reams of boring text. If you want to see great dialogue, play Planescape. Play Arcanum. Play Fallout and Fallout 2. In the last three games, if you make intelligence a dump stat, it will seriously impede your progress through the game. However, it can be very funny, since people will know you're a dimwit and pity you, giving you things, helping you along. I think it was Fallout, I walked up to this science NPC with my intelligence low (from taking drugs) and all I could say was: "Lol?". No Bioware games punishes or rewards a low intelligence.

As for your moral dilemmas and choices comment, I admit I doubled over at it. There are no moral dilemmas, only choice of good/evil and dark side/light side. No shades of grey. I assume by choice you mean choosing to be Vader or Luke? Lol. If you mean plot choices, there are none in those games that have a basis ON the character's stats; any character can make them.


Bioware games have great combat? Again it is quantity over quality. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bioware's fame began with Baldur's Gate which was based on Dungeons n Dragons? That system is turn based, not real time with a pause button. You don't know great RPG combat until you've played a Troika game, like Temple of Elemental Evil, or some Goldbox game. Even Jagged Alliance 2, though not strictly a role playing game, has more of it than most Bioware garbage. And it also happens to have the greatest turn based combat ever conceived, pissing on even X-Com.
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Old 24 December 2009, 00:51   #22
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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
You don't know great RPG combat until you've played a Troika game, like Temple of Elemental Evil, or some Goldbox game.
While I quite like AD&D both in pen & paper aswell as in computer game form, I always found the combat and magic system to be rather quirky. The whole THAC0 and spell slot system is rather odd. On the pen & paper side systems like Rolemaster/MERP and Runequest do a far better job and a turn based system on that would make a realLy neat base for a great RPG combat wise.
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Old 24 December 2009, 01:24   #23
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While I quite like AD&D both in pen & paper aswell as in computer game form, I always found the combat and magic system to be rather quirky. The whole THAC0 and spell slot system is rather odd. On the pen & paper side systems like Rolemaster/MERP and Runequest do a far better job and a turn based system on that would make a realLy neat base for a great RPG combat wise.
To be honest, I much prefer the alternative role playing systems also, like Shadowrun (version 3) and GURPS, but those systems are not popular enough to warrant video or computer game versions, it seems. Let us not speak of the last Shadowrun game, though, OK? ;-)

Again, I agree with the quirkinness of ADnD and the GoldBox/Baldur's Gate etc. did use that system. The whole fire then forget system of magic is derived from famous Vancian novels, and does allow for tactics. In ADnD, a wizard was very often the last resort because he or she was so precious because of the need to sleep to refill the spell slot, but, at least at mid to high levels, the wizard became the last word.

It's all very arbitrary and even defies logic, but there you have it. Very popular.

TOEE = DnD3.5, not ADnD, I'm sure you know that. Base attack bonus is much more intuitive than THAC0 and attributes have a direct relation to saving throws whereas only diminutive races had that in ADnD and they were of little consequence.
But all you have to remember about (physical) combat is the simple formula of THAC0 - AC = to hit number.
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Old 24 December 2009, 01:38   #24
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Originally Posted by Falcon Flight View Post
TOEE = DnD3.5, not ADnD, I'm sure you know that. Base attack bonus is much more intuitive than THAC0 and attributes have a direct relation to saving throws whereas only diminutive races had that in ADnD and they were of little consequence.
But all you have to remember about (physical) combat is the simple formula of THAC0 - AC = to hit number.
Well, AD&D = D&D2 and after that they have gone back to just naming it D&D3, but I'm sure you know that Agreed that it's a tad more intuitive with the attack bonus system, but the basic problem remains at least for me. Since those other systems are pretty much dead concerning a 'mass' market these days, it'll remain a dream to see a computer game based on them though.
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Old 24 December 2009, 01:52   #25
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The basic problem for you of the Vancian system is alleviated some what by the meta-magic feats selectable as you level through 3.5.

The problem is, at least as regards the role playing market, DnD3.5 is dead, too. DnD4.0 has been out a while and although it plays quite smoothly from my tests, it feels like I'm spamming spells in the fashion of a Diablo sorcerer, rather than being careful about when I expend that power, to maximize the effect... for me, a wizard (my preferred class) was always standing in the background, thinking "should I or shouldn't I" (i.e., turn this mess of a battlefield into a sea of flames).

About your dream of these lesser known pen n paper systems being converted to computer games, I was crushed when some deals fell through for GURPS translations in the 1990s. :-(
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Old 24 December 2009, 11:31   #26
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I didn't really think people would defend morrowind but it appears like Oblivion pissed off people so much more that they aren't bothered by morrowind's flaws anymore. Before Oblivion's release I was hoping for it to not have those mentioned flaws related to density and quality of the content because they did exist in morrowind as well. Except the interface thing perhaps but I can't say Morrowind's cluttered windows are any good either. Ok and except moronic level scaling, that didn't exist in morrowind but then again designers couldn't prevent the game become too easy when you were around 5% into the content.

Take this for example: You're in seyda neen, doing fargoth quest, top quality scripting stuff there, finish seyda neen and move to balmora or pelagiad and... nothing like that happens ever again because the initial 5% of the game is properly designed to trick reviewers and the following 95% is just outstretched emptiness with insane gear to be found at totally random locations, hard quests awarding low quality items that sell for 25 gold, if at all, forced voice acting hammering your skull and a broken enchanting/spell system that instantly renders all non-crafted items redundant. That's the kind of random non-design that existed before oblivion.
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Old 24 December 2009, 13:42   #27
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I didn't really think people would defend morrowind but it appears like Oblivion pissed off people so much more that they aren't bothered by morrowind's flaws anymore. Before Oblivion's release I was hoping for it to not have those mentioned flaws related to density and quality of the content because they did exist in morrowind as well. Except the interface thing perhaps but I can't say Morrowind's cluttered windows are any good either. Ok and except moronic level scaling, that didn't exist in morrowind but then again designers couldn't prevent the game become too easy when you were around 5% into the content.

Take this for example: You're in seyda neen, doing fargoth quest, top quality scripting stuff there, finish seyda neen and move to balmora or pelagiad and... nothing like that happens ever again because the initial 5% of the game is properly designed to trick reviewers and the following 95% is just outstretched emptiness with insane gear to be found at totally random locations, hard quests awarding low quality items that sell for 25 gold, if at all, forced voice acting hammering your skull and a broken enchanting/spell system that instantly renders all non-crafted items redundant. That's the kind of random non-design that existed before oblivion.
Your post is a complete and utter joke and makes me wonder whether you've played either game at any degree of duration whatsoever.

"Cluttered windows"... this exposes an immense amount of ignorance on your behalf, since resizing the windows SCALES AND AUTOMATICALLY REARRANGES THE INVENTORY ITEMS, INCLUDING THE PAPER-DOLL. Where is that in Oblivion? Tell me how you can resize, drag, scale and pin any of the inventory and stat mode screens of Oblivion, a game made for consoles with a big, fatass font for huge lounge-room television sets.

"Moronic level-scaling"... It IS utterly moronic to scale the levels of the enemies to that of the character since the character as a result never has to improvise with HARD encounters, and never has the opportunity to laugh at EASY ones. It is completely absurd. If you're a Bosmer marksman or a warrior of Orc/Nord/Redguard race, you can actually SQUAT at LEVEL ONE and complete the whole game, knowing that your attributes and skills are SEVERAL times that of ANY NPC you will EVER FACE. Or you can power level to LEVEL NINE and know you're TEN TIMES the power of any given foe. Why level at all? Just for the Daedric artifacts and Sufferthorn? No, my enemies catch me up if I do that (>=level 20). I know you agree with this but I want to ram the point home so hard.

"Your Fargoth example"... it demonstrates nothing but an un informed opinion of the game. Now I don't consider any TES game a scripting masterpiece: they can't hold a candle to proper RPGs. But there are a few quests even in Seyda Neen of which you are obviously entirely ignorant (tax collector) and if anyone reviewed the game based on the first area, then they're a fool.

"outstretched emptiness"... man, this is a sandbox kind of game, and that's the point! But Morrowind has FAR LESS emptiness than Oblivion, which is nothing but a procedurally generated world of grassy knolls populated with zombies posing as NPCs that Bethesda some how were able to call straight faced "radiant" AI. My face would have contorted in demon fashion telling such a lie.

"forced voice acting"... so having six or seven actors voice 100s of NPCs is some how better than a few generic voices mixed with written dialogue which is 20 or 30 times more complex in syntax. Way to go, man.

"hard quests rewarding jack shit"... you just described Oblivion, not Morrowind. There is no sense of discovery in the tiny Oblivion dungeons but in Morrowind I've had unforgettable moments in ancient and hugely expansive Dwemer and Daedric ruins.

the free roam nature of Morrowind actually has a point because you can find everything between "anything and nothing" within deep dungeons, crypts etc., that are SO remote, but in Oblivion you loot items scaled TO your level, from the corpses of enemies OF your level, and nothing is remote since there is AUTO TRAVEL, so it is POINTLESS.

There is only one reason Oblivion is better than Morrowind, and it was already mentioned by some one else: gfx.

Well, it is just a game, so who cares.
These TES RPGs really are at the bottom compared to the others I've mentioned. :-)
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Old 24 December 2009, 14:39   #28
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Moronic level scaling part was about oblivion. This is why you need to breathe while typing. I'm not into fanboyism I point good and bad points alike. To me Oblivion was "expectable" because Morrowind hinted at it (negatively). Anyway to me, both games sound like radio dramas, stretch like a burma woman's neck, have interfaces for martians and provide excitement and loot similar to what you'd find inside your belly button soo I can't care less about whichever is better.

Moving the thread towards:

Might and Magic VI

Now anyone bashes this and I'll break his neck.

(I didn't say his or her neck because I know Cammy wouldn't. Would you Cammy? eh? eh? -psycho smiley-)

Last edited by plankton; 24 December 2009 at 14:59.
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Old 24 December 2009, 14:58   #29
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Originally Posted by plankton View Post
Moving the thread towards:

Might and Magic VI

Now anyone bashes this and I'll break his neck.

Mwhaaaahahha the graphics are lame dude *runs and hides*

on a more serious note: Good points on Oblivion (and let's face it, they apply to Fallout 3 as well).....
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Old 24 December 2009, 15:09   #30
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plankton,

All I can really agree with is that I'm comparing "utter crap" with "crap", but at least I've made more vigorous arguments than you. All you've done is pull out the fanboyism card (a sign of one losing an argument or of one with nothing more to add to it), and diverted the conversation by citing another RPG. Again, way to go. :-)

You're completely wrong about the Morrowind UI, though. The only RPGs that I can think of right now that have better ones are TOEE (the absolute ultimate) and NWN (best inventory system ever).
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Old 24 December 2009, 15:23   #31
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You can disagree with my opinions but what you wrote are your own which weren't very effective at making me change mine so what if I don't think there's anything interesting in your post to reply to?

My point: hard quests rewarding jack shit
Your response: "you just described Oblivion, not Morrowind."

Well so? That's your point. Further facts? 1.You said it after I did mine. 2.Dunno. Again the same thing about being wrong about UI. You disagree... ok I guess? Yet I'm still not convinced why I should think otherwise.

So what's left here to discuss? I'm not into so called vigorous arguments because it's way too nerdy even for me to try to put my opinions about an old crpg into a competition against someone else's. I do have nothing to add to this, why drag it more?

Sure I do listen your opinions but competing against them? I'd rather pvp in an MMO than do this.

Fanboyism: Did I call anyone a fanboy? No. Is there any point of your responding to this word? No. Provocation failed. If you want to be taken more seriously, don't start your argument with "your post is a joke" but if this is intented to trigger a flame war, "way to go". Insert dishonest smiley here.

Last edited by plankton; 24 December 2009 at 15:32.
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Old 24 December 2009, 15:45   #32
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I actually saw threesomes and foursomes in this game. (than went back to playing Superfrog out of amusement)
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Old 24 December 2009, 15:45   #33
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plankton,

I said your post was "a complete and utter joke", not "a joke". Please don't misquote me. :-)

And no, I don't want to drag this. It is not about winning or losing an argument, but just about making vigorous ones, or at least comments that aren't stupid. I responded to certain statements of yours which are clearly mis informed or imply mis information or lack of knowledge; you wish to not respond to that criticism.
Fine with me. :-)
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Old 24 December 2009, 15:50   #34
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Whatever you say clown.
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Old 28 December 2009, 16:38   #35
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DAO, Fallout 3 and Oblivion are awesome games imo! Probably among the best games I've played just behind Fallout 2.
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Old 28 December 2009, 20:41   #36
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Moronic level scaling part was about oblivion. This is why you need to breathe while typing. I'm not into fanboyism I point good and bad points alike. To me Oblivion was "expectable" because Morrowind hinted at it (negatively). Anyway to me, both games sound like radio dramas, stretch like a burma woman's neck, have interfaces for martians and provide excitement and loot similar to what you'd find inside your belly button soo I can't care less about whichever is better.
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it's lovely when someone enters in a debate says mostly what i think and it's not me. thank you
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Old 29 December 2009, 12:47   #37
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Whatever you say clown.
Ah, another opinion = fact thread that ends in name calling Oh and yes, M&M 6 (and the clusterf*cks afterwards) is really a bad example for a good RPG Good that they made HOM&M to distract from it
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Old 29 December 2009, 13:02   #38
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Ah, another opinion = fact thread that ends in name calling
That came after "or at least comments that aren't stupid"
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Old 29 December 2009, 21:37   #39
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About your dream of these lesser known pen n paper systems being converted to computer games, I was crushed when some deals fell through for GURPS translations in the 1990s. :-(
Fallout was intended to employ the GURPS system. Then the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system was develped as a replacement. Is that what crushed you (be sure of my heartfelt sympathy ), or was there yet another GURPS game?
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Old 30 December 2009, 01:39   #40
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Ah, another opinion = fact thread that ends in name calling Oh and yes, M&M 6 (and the clusterf*cks afterwards) is really a bad example for a good RPG Good that they made HOM&M to distract from it
Hey! MM6 and MM7 have their charm as mass-murder simulators! When you get the area of effect mass-damage spells in MM6 it becomes a blast - I have never had a bigger sense of power in any other game. Love the terrible voice acting also. "See you, tightwad!"

MM8 and MM9 are completely arse though...
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